How can anyone know which religion (if any) is true?

[Birthew]

Hello
I have had a number of encounters with various people from different religions. The times where people have tried to get me to join their religion, they have told me that what they know is the truth. They refer to their holy books as proof.

My problem with this is that every religion there is claims this too, every religion claims to be the truth. So what religion is the true religion? Holy texts is not proof to someone outside of a religion.

This makes me think there must be something universal that people are putting their beliefs into. Is there something holy that all religions are following independently? Or is faith just something a human can have if they are convinced god is real.

I then think if religion is necessary in humans' lives, why is it not put into our genes so that we know from birth what the rules are. How can god send people to hell who have never been touched by religion? Imagine a isolated tribe, how can a god punish them if they have never known there was a god. But then imagine a christian, a jew and a mormon all trying to convince these people that their religion is the real one? How can this tribe know which religion to follow?

 

[LWB]

If there is a common thread between some believers, it is probably their desire to be loved. When people hear of a God who loved people so much, he lived as a human in poverty and suffered a brutal death, something within them is stirred. But the minute a person begins to take this story seriously, the many absurdities associated with the concept rush in like flooding waters. It is almost like survival of the fittest as to which souls can overcome the absurdities to find the treasure. This pattern is seen everywhere in nature, such as the race sperm undergo to find the egg. Faith, like existence itself, strives against impossible odds.

So it is only one sperm that finds the egg, and all the rest perish. In the same way it is extremely unlikely that a person will find the true religion. If they don't find it, they simply perish. I don't think people are specifically punished for failing to find the treasure, but unlike a sperm, people are conscious, and something within them is aware something has gone horribly wrong. They may get a glimpse of the goal before slipping into the eternal sleep from which they were summoned.

 

[oi_antz]

Hello
I have had a number of encounters with various people from different religions. The times where people have tried to get me to join their religion, they have told me that what they know is the truth. They refer to their holy books as proof.

My problem with this is that every religion there is claims this too, every religion claims to be the truth. So what religion is the true religion? Holy texts is not proof to someone outside of a religion.

This makes me think there must be something universal that people are putting their beliefs into. Is there something holy that all religions are following independently? Or is faith just something a human can have if they are convinced god is real.

I then think if religion is necessary in humans' lives, why is it not put into our genes so that we know from birth what the rules are. How can god send people to hell who have never been touched by religion? Imagine a isolated tribe, how can a god punish them if they have never known there was a god. But then imagine a christian, a jew and a mormon all trying to convince these people that their religion is the real one? How can this tribe know which religion to follow?

You have to be careful about treating Christianity as another religion. What I mean is that Jesus went to the cross for being a 100% honest prophet of God and having such faith in His role as the very son of God, that God did in fact raise Him and gave Him all power of authority in heaven and earth. That means He has authority over even angels and demons. If you want to believe something that just makes you a know-it-all then shop around and find a good teacher. If you really want to get involved with Jesus then you need to get serious about getting to the bottom of the matter and devote your life to understanding what He did to the world and what the world did to Him in response, and choose whether you stand for what He taught or whether you don't want to make a stand for the truth about God's kingdom.

I'll put it in a nutshell for you: humankind has discovered how to hijack God's kingdom by teaching people how to think in favor of their own teaching. Jesus teaches us how to think for ourselves and to personally know His Father YHWH (the God of the ten commandments who parted the red sea). So there is on one hand a whole industry based on brainwashing the masses, and on the other hand there is the empowering of the individual to get in touch with God for real. That is the narrow gate, and we are taught that if you ever find the narrow gate you'd better be prepared to drop everything and go through it.

I hope this gives you something to think about, please do look into Christianity, you are welcome to ask Jesus to be your teacher and to become His disciple if you want to really work for God. Then again, you could just sign up to any religion and be spoon fed, there's plenty of Christian churches that will open their arms to you like that. It's your life, it's your decision of course. My advice to you is not to close or open doors until you're sure that you know what you are getting in to. Feel free to ask for more clarification of what I've said, I know it's a very shallow introduction

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

You have to be careful about treating Christianity as another religion. What I mean is that Jesus went to the cross for being a 100% honest prophet of God and having such faith in His role as the very son of God, that God did in fact raise Him and gave Him all power of authority in heaven and earth. That means He has authority over even angels and demons. If you want to believe something that just makes you a know-it-all then shop around and find a good teacher. If you really want to get involved with Jesus then you need to get serious about getting to the bottom of the matter and devote your life to understanding what He did to the world and what the world did to Him in response, and choose whether you stand for what He taught or whether you don't want to make a stand for the truth about God's kingdom.

I'll put it in a nutshell for you: humankind has discovered how to hijack God's kingdom by teaching people how to think in favor of their own teaching. Jesus teaches us how to think for ourselves and to personally know His Father YHWH (the God of the ten commandments who parted the red sea). So there is on one hand a whole industry based on brainwashing the masses, and on the other hand there is the empowering of the individual to get in touch with God for real. That is the narrow gate, and we are taught that if you ever find the narrow gate you'd better be prepared to drop everything and go through it.

I hope this gives you something to think about, please do look into Christianity, you are welcome to ask Jesus to be your teacher and to become His disciple if you want to really work for God. Then again, you could just sign up to any religion and be spoon fed, there's plenty of Christian churches that will open their arms to you like that. It's your life, it's your decision of course. My advice to you is not to close or open doors until you're sure that you know what you are getting in to. Feel free to ask for more clarification of what I've said, I know it's a very shallow introduction

I've been falling into a major period of doubt in my faith, mainly due to the same question Birthew asked. About a year ago, your explanation would have resonated with me. However, one thing about it doesn't really feel right to me now.

In Birthew's post, they asked how could someone from outside a religion find the right one. One could point to a Holy Book, but every religion does that.

However, you're answer presupposes the Bible is correct in how it portrays Jesus, so really, there's no way in from the outside without appealing to the Bible. That's where I'm having trouble myself.

To put it another way, believers of other faiths could say the same thing about their belief system: that it isn't just another religion, that their prophets were 100% true and right, and that their deity is sovereign. How can someone without faith in Christianity accept your answer without accepting your presupposition that Christianity is correct? A leap of faith is required.

 

[religious&reasonable]

You have to be careful about treating Christianity as another religion. What I mean is that Jesus went to the cross for being a 100% honest prophet of God and having such faith in His role as the very son of God, that God did in fact raise Him and gave Him all power of authority in heaven and earth. That means He has authority over even angels and demons. If you want to believe something that just makes you a know-it-all then shop around and find a good teacher. If you really want to get involved with Jesus then you need to get serious about getting to the bottom of the matter and devote your life to understanding what He did to the world and what the world did to Him in response, and choose whether you stand for what He taught or whether you don't want to make a stand for the truth about God's kingdom.

I'll put it in a nutshell for you: humankind has discovered how to hijack God's kingdom by teaching people how to think in favor of their own teaching. Jesus teaches us how to think for ourselves and to personally know His Father YHWH (the God of the ten commandments who parted the red sea). So there is on one hand a whole industry based on brainwashing the masses, and on the other hand there is the empowering of the individual to get in touch with God for real. That is the narrow gate, and we are taught that if you ever find the narrow gate you'd better be prepared to drop everything and go through it.

I hope this gives you something to think about, please do look into Christianity, you are welcome to ask Jesus to be your teacher and to become His disciple if you want to really work for God. Then again, you could just sign up to any religion and be spoon fed, there's plenty of Christian churches that will open their arms to you like that. It's your life, it's your decision of course. My advice to you is not to close or open doors until you're sure that you know what you are getting in to. Feel free to ask for more clarification of what I've said, I know it's a very shallow introduction

i think your what the the OP is talking about.

How can he know that your not just another person who "knows" his religon is the truth.

I mean, it's not like you have hard evidence to back up your statements, none of the religions do.

How does he know that christianity is not just "Another religion" where your being spoon-fed.

Man, I just wish God would come out of he clouds and say "Christianity is the correct religon" for everyone to see. That would make this all so much easier.

 

[Birthew]

This is exactly the problem. How would god refuse to permit people into heaven untouched by religion or those who have been but by multiple religions and cannot decide. Are they left to go to hell for their confusion? Why doesn't god make himself aware and actually tell each individual what the rules are and what religion to follow?

i think your what the the OP is talking about.

How can he know that your not just another person who "knows" his religon is the truth.

I mean, it's not like you have hard evidence to back up your statements, none of the religions do.

How does he know that christianity is not just "Another religion" where your being spoon-fed.

Man, I just wish God would come out of he clouds and say "Christianity is the correct religon" for everyone to see. That would make this all so much easier.

 

[salida]

Many religions claim to be true-but since they are all fundamentally different only one is correct. One would know the true one by determining if this could be from God or not. Since belief is a spiritual decision and not from genes being from the physical is a matter of what you want to accept as truth even though the truth is out there. I have studied other religions and the nonchristian ones think they can work their way to heaven-but in christianity one is saved by grace through faith and good works is a byproduct of this true faith. Thus, works alone can't save anyone-God isn't impressed-its like ants trying to build you a house. I will give you some info regarding the bible-because of its attributes it could only be written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

External evidence test of bible
http://www.knowwhatyoubelieve.com/believe/evidence/external_evidence_test.htm
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://www.ucg.org/bible/jesus-resurrection/
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[HISservant21]

Hello
I have had a number of encounters with various people from different religions. The times where people have tried to get me to join their religion, they have told me that what they know is the truth. They refer to their holy books as proof.

My problem with this is that every religion there is claims this too, every religion claims to be the truth. So what religion is the true religion? Holy texts is not proof to someone outside of a religion.

This makes me think there must be something universal that people are putting their beliefs into. Is there something holy that all religions are following independently? Or is faith just something a human can have if they are convinced god is real.

I then think if religion is necessary in humans' lives, why is it not put into our genes so that we know from birth what the rules are. How can god send people to hell who have never been touched by religion? Imagine a isolated tribe, how can a god punish them if they have never known there was a god. But then imagine a christian, a jew and a mormon all trying to convince these people that their religion is the real one? How can this tribe know which religion to follow?

----------
friend, there is and can only be one Truth, and ultimately, HE (/and it) has been, is being (by GOD's mercy & grace), and will be made known to all...

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." - John 3:16-17

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." - Galatians 3:20

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" - 1 Timothy 2:5

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." - Acts 4:12

May The LORD GOD bless you.

 

[Birthew]

Many religions claim to be true-but since they are all fundamentally different only one is correct. One would know the true one by determining if this could be from God or not. Since belief is a spiritual decision and not from genes being from the physical is a matter of what you want to accept as truth even though the truth is out there. I have studied other religions and the nonchristian ones think they can work their way to heaven-but in christianity one is saved by grace through faith and good works is a byproduct of this true faith. Thus, works alone can't save anyone-God isn't impressed-its like ants trying to build you a house. I will give you some info regarding the bible-because of its attributes it could only be written by men through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Visit: (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

External evidence test of bib

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 BC; some scholars think 3000 BC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

Bible quotes mean nothing to me, if i went on to a Jewish forum or a Hebrew forum they would all produce their holy texts as evidence. Think about it from a non religious view. I know you know what the truth is and there is no way anyone can tell you differently, but this is the case with people from other religions. How does God expect me to be able to decide?

 

[razeontherock]

Welcome to CF!

I don't believe G-d Judges us based on our "decision to pick the right religion." I think Scripture is clear that we are Judged based on doing what we know is right. And this involves our conscience, no matter what our background might be, or what we have or haven't been exposed to.

I think our Creator has spoken to our species, throughout our history. I think what He has revealed through Jesus Christ is more complete than via any other system, and I think this allows us closer fellowship with Him.

So you seem to be worrying about an angry Judge, while I'm talking about a loving Father. Does this say anything to you of the differences?

 

[aiki]

Hello
I have had a number of encounters with various people from different religions. The times where people have tried to get me to join their religion, they have told me that what they know is the truth. They refer to their holy books as proof.

And what of those holy books? Is there anything about them that warrants their claim to revealing ultimate truth? The Bible has much to commend it to the searcher for Truth as the revelation of God's Truth.

My problem with this is that every religion there is claims this too, every religion claims to be the truth. So what religion is the true religion? Holy texts is not proof to someone outside of a religion.

Not all truth claims are equal. While every religion may make the same claim to reveal ultimate Truth, not all of those claims are equally valid or powerful. You must study for yourself this matter and arrive at your own conclusions.

This makes me think there must be something universal that people are putting their beliefs into.

I think the Bible is correct when it says that there is an innate knowledge of God that all people have. Who that God is and what His purposes are cannot be discerned from this innate knowledge, however. A more specific revelation of God and His will is required.

Is there something holy that all religions are following independently? Or is faith just something a human can have if they are convinced god is real.

Faith is not the domain of the religious only; faith isn't inherently religious. Even atheists exert faith - just not in God.

I then think if religion is necessary in humans' lives, why is it not put into our genes so that we know from birth what the rules are.

Virtually all people have a conscience. There is a universal, objective morality that shapes the conduct of human beings. This fact is highly suggestive of an objective Source for that morality, which is God.

How can god send people to hell who have never been touched by religion?

God doesn't send people to hell for never being touched by religion. He sends people to hell for taking what understanding they had of their Creator and either suppressing or warping it rather than searching Him out with all their heart.

Imagine a isolated tribe, how can a god punish them if they have never known there was a god.

Even the most remote tribe of people have some sense of God. Creation loudly proclaims a Creator. It is what such people do with that general revelation of God evident in the world in which they live for which they wil be held accountable.

But then imagine a christian, a jew and a mormon all trying to convince these people that their religion is the real one? How can this tribe know which religion to follow?

By studying the matter carefully and weighing out the evidence for and against the claims each religion makes. There is no other way that I'm aware of. One might also simply ask God to make the truth about Himself known.

Selah.

 

[oi_antz]

This is exactly the problem. How would god refuse to permit people into heaven untouched by religion or those who have been but by multiple religions and cannot decide. Are they left to go to hell for their confusion? Why doesn't god make himself aware and actually tell each individual what the rules are and what religion to follow?

You are presuming a lot about Christianity and it is wrong to do so. Your statement implies that God only allows Christians into heaven and that is a lie. There is only one person who is qualified to say who goes to heaven and that is Jesus. You will need to get your faith directly from Him if you want to know the truth, and your fellow man is only capable of helping you get in touch with Him through reading The Bible.

Can you please reply with your thoughts about what I said in post #3?

You have the unique opportunity to learn about Jesus, which some people don't get during their lifetime. With greater opportunity comes greater responsibility. We are warned that we have to give an account for every idle word spoken, so when you speak of the topic of Jesus the Christ and God our heavenly Father, you should make an effort to be sure every single word is going to achieve something. The polar opposite to this is blashphemy, and your attitude at present has you performing somewhere in the middle, but it appears that you only want to get some assurance that your present walk of faith is OK. Correct me if I am wrong about this but that is how it appears from my perspective.

Here is an answer to your concern about heaven and hell:

Matthew 25:31-46 (New Living Translation)

The Final Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[c] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

So you can see here that we are judged whether we have behaved Christ-like. The final judgment transcends religion altogether.

I would like you to think about what reasons you have to not read The Bible, because that is the book which speaks all about Jesus. Your fellow man can only help you get your mind in the right space to read it, but you are going to need to stand on your own two feet at some stage.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

I would like you to think about what reasons you have to not read The Bible, because that is the book which speaks all about Jesus. Your fellow man can only help you get your mind in the right space to read it, but you are going to need to stand on your own two feet at some stage.

Not trying to speak for Birthew here, but I think Birthew's problem is not so much that they don't want to read the Bible, but rather that they're not sure whether to believe it's valid in its claims.

The question for Birthew is what Holy Book to believe. The answer can't come from the Bible, because that's circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because it says it is". You also can't appeal to God without escaping circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe in God because of what is written in the Bible."

For me, and likely for Birthew, I'm looking for answers outside of the Bible to lead to God. Something to support the circular reasoning I presented above. I don't want to make a leap of faith, because people make leaps of faith all the time, and they end up in all sorts of different religions and belief systems.

 

[aiki]

The question for Birthew is what Holy Book to believe. The answer can't come from the Bible, because that's circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because it says it is". You also can't appeal to God without escaping circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe in God because of what is written in the Bible."

The Christian doesn't have to resort to the circular kind of reasoning you've described above. Only ill-informed believers use this kind of argument in defense of their faith. It is intellectually lazy and quite unconvincing. There are good reasons to accept that the Bible is God's Word beyond its own claims that it is. Fulfilled prophecy is an extremely good reason. There is also the incredible thematic unity of the Bible in spite of its highly irregular creation. One could also consider the powerful impact the Christian faith, defined within the pages of Scripture, has had upon western civilization since the time of the Roman Empire. And so on.

One can also make very logically airtight arguments in favor of God's existence. Gottfried Liebniz's Argument from Contingency is an example. So is the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Neither of these arguments resorts to circular reasoning.

Selah.

 

[oi_antz]

Not trying to speak for Birthew here, but I think Birthew's problem is not so much that they don't want to read the Bible, but rather that they're not sure whether to believe it's valid in its claims.

The question for Birthew is what Holy Book to believe. The answer can't come from the Bible, because that's circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because it says it is". You also can't appeal to God without escaping circular reasoning: "The Bible is true because God wrote it, and I believe in God because of what is written in the Bible."

For me, and likely for Birthew, I'm looking for answers outside of the Bible to lead to God. Something to support the circular reasoning I presented above. I don't want to make a leap of faith, because people make leaps of faith all the time, and they end up in all sorts of different religions and belief systems.

Well it is more a question whether you believe Jesus was right or wrong. Therefore the question you have is whether Jesus really is the son of God or not. Read the following verse and see whether you think Jesus is correct or whether you think the religious leaders are correct:

Matthew 21:33-46 (New Living Translation)

Parable of the Evil Farmers

33 “Now listen to another story. A certain landowner planted a vineyard, built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 34 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent his servants to collect his share of the crop. 35 But the farmers grabbed his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 So the landowner sent a larger group of his servants to collect for him, but the results were the same.
37 “Finally, the owner sent his son, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’

38 “But when the tenant farmers saw his son coming, they said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Come on, let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 39 So they grabbed him, dragged him out of the vineyard, and murdered him.

40 “When the owner of the vineyard returns,” Jesus asked, “what do you think he will do to those farmers?”

41 The religious leaders replied, “He will put the wicked men to a horrible death and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his share of the crop after each harvest.”

42 Then Jesus asked them, “Didn’t you ever read this in the Scriptures?

‘The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.
This is the Lord’s doing,
and it is wonderful to see.’[a]

43 I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit. 44 Anyone who stumbles over that stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone it falls on.”

45 When the leading priests and Pharisees heard this parable, they realized he was telling the story against them—they were the wicked farmers. 46 They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowds, who considered Jesus to be a prophet.

Having read that, now Birthew should have an idea of what Jesus meant with this verse:

Matthew 10:33-39 (New Living Translation)

33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’[l]

37 “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

As I showed you in the quotes above from Jesus, the world tried to kill Him and claim the vineyard for their own purposes by sanitizing history, hijacking the kingdom of God and propagating the Christ myth. If you are going to hold an opinion about Jesus, where do you get the information to form that opinion? The world or The Holy Bible? I'm not actually saying to put all your eggs in one basket, but rather to look at the various motives behind the information that we have access to. One source wants to put you right in touch with God, the other wants to rob God of His kingdom and gain control of the world.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hi oi_antz,

I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record here, but you cited the Bible here to try to convince us that Jesus was right, when we're trying to find a way to believe Christianity that doesn't rely on a Holy Book (since we need a leap of faith to take such a Holy Book as valid).

Well it is more a question whether you believe Jesus was right or wrong. Therefore the question you have is whether Jesus really is the son of God or not. Read the following verse and see whether you think Jesus is correct or whether you think the religious leaders are correct:

The question I have is whether Christianity is valid. Within that question is the question of whether Jesus was the son of God, whether the God of Christianity exists, whether the Bible is valid, and many other related questions, so I wouldn't put it down to just one.

I'd disagree that the only option here is that Jesus is 100% correct or that the religious leaders are 100% correct - it seems like a false dichotomy.
Clearly, Jesus is right that the owner of the vineyard would very likely put the farmers to death. However, Jesus goes on to link this to a prophecy in the Old Testament. A non-believer could say Jesus was right in concluding that the owner of the vineyard would put the farmers to death, but for that person to say that because Jesus was right there, that the whole prophecy thing was correct would require a leap in faith that the God of Christianity is correct in setting that prophecy.

It's like if I had a parable where I said 1 + 1 = 2, and then said a religious prophecy made by "X" God will be fulfilled because of that. Suppose I then said, you either have the choice of deciding that 1 + 1 doesn't equal two, or the prophecy made by "X" god will be fulfilled? That's a false dichotomy.

As far as getting information about Jesus, I wouldn't say there's a choice about the world vs. the Bible. One could just plead ignorance, and say the Bible isn't enough evidence on its own, and that they'd need outside evidence - such as philosophical or solid outside historical evidence (before you cite Biblical texts, I mean historical evidence that isn't a Holy text - because if we had to take the Bible as a Holy text that tells stories of actual miracles, then why not another one? It takes a leap of faith for us to consider a text Holy and correct. Religions have imagined miracles and written them down in "Holy" books, so we need to be discerning before we just take a leap of faith and accept one, since really only one can be correct.)

Ultimately, what I'm looking for is evidence outside the Bible. Every time, you've cited the Bible. Do you have any arguments that don't rely on the Bible to argue for the validity of Christianity?

Please try to imagine things from the perspective of a non-believer. Arguing from the Bible is going to have as much effect as if someone of another religion argued from their Holy text that their religion is correct and that you should follow it. Obviously, you're not going to, since you don't have faith in their holy book.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

The Christian doesn't have to resort to the circular kind of reasoning you've described above. Only ill-informed believers use this kind of argument in defense of their faith. It is intellectually lazy and quite unconvincing. There are good reasons to accept that the Bible is God's Word beyond its own claims that it is. Fulfilled prophecy is an extremely good reason. There is also the incredible thematic unity of the Bible in spite of its highly irregular creation. One could also consider the powerful impact the Christian faith, defined within the pages of Scripture, has had upon western civilization since the time of the Roman Empire. And so on.

One can also make very logically airtight arguments in favor of God's existence. Gottfried Liebniz's Argument from Contingency is an example. So is the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Neither of these arguments resorts to circular reasoning.

Selah.

Hi aiki,
I like where you're coming from, and much prefer this approach over blind fideism. The arguments you listed above convinced me for a long time of Christianity's validity. However, I've recently given them up.
For example, the Kalam Cosmological Argument only gets you as far as Deism. I think the fact that Muslims constructed the argument originally shows that it can lead to any theistic God, or even the non-interventionist God of Deism.
Fulfilled prophecy is always tricky to argue for a religion's validity, since things can be written after things happened and prophecy can be claimed to have been fulfilled. If prophecies are unfulfilled, one can always claim they'll happen in the future or they're being uninterpreted. One can also do the 'double prophecy' claim to say things are being fulfilled twice, plus many prophecies are very vague, allowing connections with specific events to be easily made.
Also, to argue from the impact of Christianity on Western Civilization isn't necessarily valid either, since other religions have had large impacts on their civilization as well. Islam has had a huge impact on major parts of the world. I guess one could argue that Christianity's impact has been positive, due to the rise of Western Civilization, but one could also point to Enlightenment values as having an influence as well (and the positive influence of a religion doesn't always mean it's valid. Mormons are usually really nice people, but we'd both agree they're are some major issues with the validity of their religion).

 

[oi_antz]

Hi oi_antz,

I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record here, but you cited the Bible here to try to convince us that Jesus was right, when we're trying to find a way to believe Christianity that doesn't rely on a Holy Book (since we need a leap of faith to take such a Holy Book as valid).

The question I have is whether Christianity is valid. Within that question is the question of whether Jesus was the son of God, whether the God of Christianity exists, whether the Bible is valid, and many other related questions, so I wouldn't put it down to just one.

I'd disagree that the only option here is that Jesus is 100% correct or that the religious leaders are 100% correct - it seems like a false dichotomy.
Clearly, Jesus is right that the owner of the vineyard would very likely put the farmers to death. However, Jesus goes on to link this to a prophecy in the Old Testament. A non-believer could say Jesus was right in concluding that the owner of the vineyard would put the farmers to death, but for that person to say that because Jesus was right there, that the whole prophecy thing was correct would require a leap in faith that the God of Christianity is correct in setting that prophecy.

It's like if I had a parable where I said 1 + 1 = 2, and then said a religious prophecy made by "X" God will be fulfilled because of that. Suppose I then said, you either have the choice of deciding that 1 + 1 doesn't equal two, or the prophecy made by "X" god will be fulfilled? That's a false dichotomy.

As far as getting information about Jesus, I wouldn't say there's a choice about the world vs. the Bible. One could just plead ignorance, and say the Bible isn't enough evidence on its own, and that they'd need outside evidence - such as philosophical or solid outside historical evidence (before you cite Biblical texts, I mean historical evidence that isn't a Holy text - because if we had to take the Bible as a Holy text that tells stories of actual miracles, then why not another one? It takes a leap of faith for us to consider a text Holy and correct. Religions have imagined miracles and written them down in "Holy" books, so we need to be discerning before we just take a leap of faith and accept one, since really only one can be correct.)

Ultimately, what I'm looking for is evidence outside the Bible. Every time, you've cited the Bible. Do you have any arguments that don't rely on the Bible to argue for the validity of Christianity?

Please try to imagine things from the perspective of a non-believer. Arguing from the Bible is going to have as much effect as if someone of another religion argued from their Holy text that their religion is correct and that you should follow it. Obviously, you're not going to, since you don't have faith in their holy book.

Dear wsgqapu_ap, I summon you to answer me here: are you interested in providing information that will benefit the OP's quest for understanding, or are you interested in fighting with brethren?

Please answer that question.

Now, note that Jesus asked the religious leaders WHAT THEY THOUGHT the owner would do, yet you think it is Jesus who said the wicked ones would be put to death. Read on and you see how disgusted Jesus is at their reply that He invoked a curse upon them that the kingdom of God would be "taken away from them and given to a nation that would produce the proper fruit". Furthermore, look at who that nation is - it is the stone that the builders rejected! What does that mean to you? To me it means that the kingdom of God will be given to the enemies of the religious leaders and it will be a stone that will break anyone who stumbles over it, and it will crush anyone it falls on, and this is a curse spoken by Jesus the son of God and invoked by the power of The Holy Bible, so take heed.

I dare say that you have the wrong end of the stick.

Since you have told me that you don't want to see scripture quoted, answer me:

• Why you would rather see my own words used where the exact same thing is stated more concisely in The Bible?
• Where can I find alternative records of what transpired at the time of Jesus' life on earth?

In case it is not clear, I am suggesting that you need to do a little more research and repenting before you should feel warranted to remove the splinter from my eye.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

Hi oi_antz,
Yeah, I totally misread that. Sorry about that - I should have read it more closely and I fully admit my mistake there.

I hope I'm not coming across as something who is wanting to fight. I'm just really wanting to find answers, and close to giving up on Christianity alltogether, and a bit desperate to find something out there to back my failing faith up.

And I hope I'm not coming across as judging you - that was not my meaning at all. I was just trying to see if you could look at things from the perspective of someone who doesn't necessarily give the Bible as a given. There are no splinters in your eye I was trying to remove and I don't think there are any there - I was just trying to get to try on a different pair of glasses for a minute to see how things can be viewed differently for someone who is looking for evidence outside of the Bible. That's what the OP and I are looking for, but apart from a couple things aiki said, we haven't been seeing. And while I fully admit my mistake, I do feel like noting that it really wasn't integral to what I was saying.

Regarding your questions, I'm looking for evidence that is written from a non-biased source. If a texts by Roman pagans was to pop up saying that Jesus rose from the dead, or talking about the dead saints rising from the dead and walking around Jerusalem, and that this was widely witnessed, that's what I'd look for. Or something else - modern undeniable proof of a miracle. The thing is, I'm not sure the evidence I want to see exists. The one realm I thought it might be - philosophy, just as easily leads to any God, and not specifically the God of Christianity.

I hope this discussion calms down and doesn't remain heated. That wasn't my intent at all. If I came off as a little frustrated, it's just that you kept citing the Bible when we explicitly were looking for something outside of the Bible.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi oi_antz,
Yeah, I totally misread that. Sorry about that - I should have read it more closely and I fully admit my mistake there.

I hope I'm not coming across as something who is wanting to fight. I'm just really wanting to find answers, and close to giving up on Christianity alltogether, and a bit desperate to find something out there to back my failing faith up.

And I hope I'm not coming across as judging you - that was not my meaning at all. I was just trying to see if you could look at things from the perspective of someone who doesn't necessarily give the Bible as a given. There are no splinters in your eye I was trying to remove and I don't think there are any there - I was just trying to get to try on a different pair of glasses for a minute to see how things can be viewed differently for someone who is looking for evidence outside of the Bible. That's what the OP and I are looking for, but apart from a couple things aiki said, we haven't been seeing. And while I fully admit my mistake, I do feel like noting that it really wasn't integral to what I was saying.

Regarding your questions, I'm looking for evidence that is written from a non-biased source. If a texts by Roman pagans was to pop up saying that Jesus rose from the dead, or talking about the dead saints rising from the dead and walking around Jerusalem, and that this was widely witnessed, that's what I'd look for. Or something else - modern undeniable proof of a miracle. The thing is, I'm not sure the evidence I want to see exists. The one realm I thought it might be - philosophy, just as easily leads to any God, and not specifically the God of Christianity.

I hope this discussion calms down and doesn't remain heated. That wasn't my intent at all. If I came off as a little frustrated, it's just that you kept citing the Bible when we explicitly were looking for something outside of the Bible.

Don't worry too much about it, we each play a part to achieve an overall goal and as long as we maintain a repentant heart then Jesus is able to use us according to His greater will.

I'm still interested to have your answers to my bullet point questions.

I understand that the battle against Jesus by the king of Babylon has infiltrated the entire world except a very few of Jesus' disciples who have remained loyal to Jesus, and this is why you will not find any secular records some 2,000 years later. The Christ myth is the king of Babylon's greatest work of art yet, which is why we must be spreading the word about why The Holy Bible contains the truth about God, and rationality just won't cut it I'm afraid, you have to use their conscience if you want them to listen. Check out Living Waters Website and listen to the sermon "Hells best kept secret", you will learn a lot about how the modern church has been corrupted.

It is good that you have seen the scripture in a new light, we are all capable of misreading it at times and it is especially good to see our efforts working for a greater good.

So, please do answer those questions I asked and let's see whether what you are asking is actually reasonable