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Hi all,
Deadworm threw down the gauntlet suggesting that I make an earnest effort to re-aquire my belief in God. I'm not sure what he has planned but I would very much like to be convinced so I will put myself in his hands for the journey.
I am not sure to what extent this will be an interactive, all participants welcome kind of thread, however of you feel like you have something to add please feel free to respectfully engage!
Peace,
Athée
Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
Ok, I still don't really know if I understand the question, but I think the best answer I can give in both cases is evidence. God might exist because there might be evidence of God that I haven't been made aware of yet. God might not exist because if lack if evidence.Actually no, I am not asking you why you "want" God to exist but what reasons you think God might exist and what reasons you have for God not existing.
So if I understand correctly, you believe that physical evidence is lacking in confirming God but you believe that there could be physical evidence that might at a some later time arise that confirms His existence?Ok, I still don't really know if I understand the question, but I think the best answer I can give in both cases is evidence. God might exist because there might be evidence of God that I haven't been made aware of yet. God might not exist because if lack if evidence.
I'm not limiting it to physical evidence, although that would of course be significant. Evidence could be having some sort of experience of God, noting differences in Christians that could be attributed to the Holy Spirit, observing patterns of answered prayers, etc.So if I understand correctly, you believe that physical evidence is lacking in confirming God but you believe that there could be physical evidence that might at a some later time arise that confirms His existence?
I know that you believe that there are physical attributes in the universe that could be taken as evidence of God's existence of which you agree that there is no other known reason for that evidence known at this time but talking to you prior to this you claimed that the evidence might have a good or reasonable answer that might explain it at a later date as well. In other words you don't have a reason or answer to explain evidence that could point to God's existence but you feel that the evidence that points to God might be explained without God in the future. Is that a fair assessment?
I'm not limiting it to physical evidence, although that would of course be significant. Evidence could be having some sort of experience of God, noting differences in Christians that could be attributed to the Holy Spirit, observing patterns of answered prayers, etc.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, I'm curious about the last part, about closure and the feeling of belief. Right now, I don't have belief, but I'm going through the motions by going to church, and trying to find belief. I don't think it counts to just continue on like that...if there is a God, I'm sure He can see through this and know there's no true faith here.That's totally understandable, and I can see how a person can lose faith in both concepts at the same time. I remember when my sister came face to face with the realization that good Ol' Saint Nick wasn't really delivering presents, and wouldn't be doing so any time soon. In fact, I remember vividly that not only was she in tears and distress over it, but the very question immediately falling from her 8-9 year old mouth was, “...well, is there a God?!!” As I look back upon that incident, the funny thing for me is emembering that I answered “yes,” despite that I had already decommissioned Santa from my own mental employment, and I only knew a very tiny fragment about Christianity in general at the time—I was 12 years old. I suppose I said “yes” not because I knew the right answer, but because I felt sorry for her. In fact, I was not anywhere near being a Christian at the time; all of that came about 5 years later.
That's ok, MG. Neither can I. None of the usual arguments--cosmological, teleological, or whatnot--have played much, if any, role in my faith, although I do remember restlessly laying in bed after seeing Carl Sagan's “Cosmos” in the early 80's and pondering the vast mystery of “why is there anything here at all” and “what came before the Big Bang.” Needless to say, I can admit that I've experienced many days over the past 30 years where I felt like a chimp in a Kohler Experiment …
Sure. They could be wrong. They could be wrong about a lot of things, however.
That's great, and all of that is a plus. I know it may not always be as helpful as we'd like it to be, but it's all still a plus.
That's good. I've heard that too. I've also heard that “confirmation bias” isn't uncommon either. But then again, I also surmise that what we each think constitutes “confirmation” of said phenomena isn't an identical concept residing in each individual human brain.
Sure. I've seen the same here.
Well...you've got me at a disadvantage there. I've never run a marathon, although I used to run track back in junior high. I never won a race, but at least I was in shape.
I think it's good that you're making that effort, MG … the only caveat to that is I don't think you're going to find a “missing link” that completes the picture of what faith is supposed to look like. You might want to question the extent to which you think you require closure to have achieve the feeling of "belief" ...
I'm not limiting it to physical evidence, although that would of course be significant. Evidence could be having some sort of experience of God, noting differences in Christians that could be attributed to the Holy Spirit, observing patterns of answered prayers, etc.
Anything to indicate they were being listened to and responded to. So many believe that prayer can cure, for instance, but do those who pray have cancer go into remission more often than those who don't ?What do you feel would be patterns of answered prayers?
Stop trying to find "belief". Belief is like standing on drifting sand. Don't ask God to help you believe but ask God to allow you to know Him.Thanks for your thoughtful reply, I'm curious about the last part, about closure and the feeling of belief. Right now, I don't have belief, but I'm going through the motions by going to church, and trying to find belief. I don't think it counts to just continue on like that...if there is a God, I'm sure He can see through this and know there's no true faith here.
Without the missing link, I can't honestly call myself anything but an agnostic, in fact I don't know how anyone who hadn't closed the loop could fully claim to be Christian
I have asked that as well of God. Should I just wait, and stop with the study, worship and prayer?Stop trying to find "belief". Belief is like standing on drifting sand. Don't ask God to help you believe but ask God to allow you to know Him.
Are there things in your life right now that you would like to have direction with or an answer to?Anything to indicate they were being listened to and responded to. So many believe that prayer can cure, for instance, but do those who pray have cancer go into remission more often than those who don't ?
How does one worship a God that you don't think exists? I am not being rude, just very curious.I have asked that as well of God. Should I just wait, and stop with the study, worship and prayer?
Because it seems like a good option to find faith. Attending church and praying, trying to live as a person of faith. Is it not?How does one worship a God that you don't think exists? I am not being rude, just very curious.
Yes, is there a God (or gods)? Is there an afterlife? Those are the two main ones.Are there things in your life right now that you would like to have direction with or an answer to?
Faith can only be found if one knows God. What would you have faith in? How can you be faithfully trusting someone you don't think exists? Do you see the problem? How can God answer your prayers, help you to trust Him if you don't even think He exists? There is nothing but good I am sure by going through the motions and you gain I am sure much from all those endeavors but those things are empty in regard to God if you do them in disbelief. You ask if you should stop? I don't think that is necessary, but what is necessary is your realization that what you are doing is not leading you to God and that you haven't in 40 years found Him. You have to look into your very deepest part of you and ask yourself this, Do I want to REALLY know the truth? Do I really want to know if God is real? If so, can you surrender to Him? Can you accept God first..God alone and are you ready to follow Him where ever He takes you?Because it seems like a good option to find faith. Attending church and praying, trying to live as a person of faith. Is it not?
I know God exists and I think you can know too. However, unless you truly do discover God the second question will allude you.Yes, is there a God (or gods)? Is there an afterlife? Those are the two main ones.
I do really want to know if God is real, I have all along.Faith can only be found if one knows God. What would you have faith in? How can you be faithfully trusting someone you don't think exists? Do you see the problem? How can God answer your prayers, help you to trust Him if you don't even think He exists? There is nothing but good I am sure by going through the motions and you gain I am sure much from all those endeavors but those things are empty in regard to God if you do them in disbelief. You ask if you should stop? I don't think that is necessary, but what is necessary is your realization that what you are doing is not leading you to God and that you haven't in 40 years found Him. You have to look into your very deepest part of you and ask yourself this, Do I want to REALLY know the truth? Do I really want to know if God is real? If so, can you surrender to Him? Can you accept God first..God alone and are you ready to follow Him where ever He takes you?
Then it is time to stop straddling the fence.I do really want to know if God is real, I have all along.
How do I do that?Then it is time to stop straddling the fence.
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