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I still don't get the point you are trying to make with all this.. Help a fellow out?In Revelation 7:1, why did John not write out that he saw...the four angels?
John wrore at first...saw four angels. Because he would not use the definite
article the first time they do something in the overall set of visions.
What did John write that he saw in Revelation 8:2? the seven angels
So we know here is not where their debut is in Revelation.
What did he reveal in Revelation 8 about them in verse 2?
....which stood before God....
Why did they in a prior scene stand before God?
Because the seven angels, when back in Revelation 7, stood before
God and told how many they had sealed back on earth.
Yes, am very passionate about following God.
Thank again for commenting. This is not a debate thread so I will not comment on what you posted here. I did want to say that your post felt very condescendingNo other God died for all of humanity besides Jesus. Christianity is deeply unique among all religions. No other faith has a Savior. Not one. The more you post the more I realize you actually are stating, in a very long and winding way, that you never were a true believer. You can't lose a salvation you've never had. You think of God as an idea or a philosophy. God is a Person. He is the Creator. He is our Savior.
You're blinded. But, as I said, if it floats your boat, so to speak, to be an unbeliever, then have it and I hope you have happiness, peace and protection in your life without God.
Whether you believe in God or not doesn't change the FACT He exists. Your arguments are nonsensical. You cannot even prove that you yourself exist, regardless of "proving" God exists. Every single thing in every single galaxy of the universe is evidence of God. But you have purposely closed your mind and your heart. Your intellect is your stumbling block. You're smart but really not that smart since you have completely missed the one thing that ties everything together - God.
You will know one day He exists, as all atheists and unbelievers will. You will bow before Him, one way or another.And I say that with all kind and caring intentions towards you. I hope a ray of truth filters in through your closed mind. I'm praying for you because I know if God hasn't given up on you He still has a chance to get through to you before it's too late. He has decades still to do so with you, I'm sure.
Again most of this is off topic but it is my own fault since it was all in the way I answered Once's question! The one element I wonder about is where you said that human minds are just so incredibly, astoundingly inferior to God that we can't begin to understand.For some reason I got such a great big ol' laugh out of this post! You're entertaining, to say the least.
Just so you know, God created philosophy, math and science. He's so far above what infinitesimal human minds can comprehend it's staggering. Haven't you ever noticed that one scientific discovery always leads to another? And another? String theory, anyone? Superstring theory? Super, super, duper, uper string theory?
God will never allow mere humans to get to the end of knowledge or science. He reveals what he wants us know, step by step. And then we take credit for being so smart as to have "discovered" whatever is the newest scientific breakthrough.
God is endlessly creative, above all things, for eternity. There is endless evidence of that and if you know one single thing at all about physics or any kind of real science (not philosophy, it's not a true science) you should already have started to grasp that.
I like the idea of starting with the Loftus outsider test of faith as I think you suggested before. I tend to deploy it in conversation it truthfully have never given it a close scrutiny. It seems to have an intuitive force but as we know that does not mean it is correct! If you actually meant another of the Loftus texts those would be fine as wellWow, Athée. If that last statement is as relevant as you seem to make it out to be, then I basically have no leg left to stand on ... and I won't be able to get anything off the ground. Like...nada! Zilcho! Null set! Game over! Or, am I wrong in the way i've interpreted your meaning, you Mad Hatter you?!
I might humbly suggest that some of the way in which we each understand Christian faith and religion will depend on how we answer the following question: If the Left shoe goes on the Right foot, upon which foot do you place the Left shoe? Or, maybe the truth is, we're just all doing our best to do the "Kohler Monkey Shuffle"!
For which event would you like me to purchase tickets, Athée?How about "the Loftus Outsider Test Plunge"? Although I've got a couple dozen other ideas we could pursue, I think taking the plunge sounds good, "in any event."
Peace,
2PhiloVoid
Thank again for commenting. This is not a debate thread so I will not comment on what you posted here. I did want to say that your post felt very condescendingThat said this has very definitively not been the case at any other time so I am going to assume the best and that you did not intend it that way
Looking forward to more dialogue!
Again most of this is off topic but it is my own fault since it was all in the way I answered Once's question! The one element I wonder about is where you said that human minds are just so incredibly, astoundingly inferior to God that we can't begin to understand.
That being true on what basis can we claim to know anything about God?
No problem, I am guilty of lack of patience myself on these fora at times.I apologize, I don't mean to sound condescending. I definitely did not intend to sound that way. Just your arguments are starting to make less sense. You say it's not a debate thread yet you keep pressing "there is no proof God exists" to people who deeply believe God does exist.
I don't understand why atheists want to be on a Christian forum, although I am glad you do and find it interesting to read your posts. I cannot understand an atheist mindset for the life of me, though. I speak with God every day about everything. I'm sure I annoy Him, lol. I was happy when He came into my heart and I knew I would never be alone again. And I also found out that I'd never been alone in the first place, I just hadn't let Him in yet. Now, looking back on my years of searching I can see how He protected me, undeserving me, of all people. I've done some foolish things in life that deserved judgment but He gave me mercy instead. I will live the rest of my life and beyond being thankful for that.
I hope you'll forgive me - I was frustrated when I posted because I didn't understand you. Peace!
How do we know that this gifted knowledge is an accurate representation of the truth. If our minds are so incapable of understanding God it must mean that when God tells us he is like a father, that in reality he is vastly more unlike a father than he is like one.It is true human minds are far below God's mind. But he gives us knowledge, as a gift.
No problem, I am guilty of lack of patience myself on these fora at times.
As to my statement that there is an absence of evidence for God, I think you will recognize that it was in response to a question by Once. That said I take your point about debate. I find it difficult to know how far to go. This forum is for exploring Christianity and I don't see how to do that without asking probing questions and pressing each other on the places where we see things differently. What I try to do is explore a bit and then leave the question unresolved, I am not trying to prove to anyone that my perspective is correct (at least in this forum), rather I am trying to show them where their perspective appears to me to fall short, allowing them the opportunity to clarify or add evidence or argument or even just flat out disagree with me.
Hope that helps.
How do we know that this gifted knowledge is an accurate representation of the truth. If our minds are so incapable of understanding God it must mean that when God tells us he is like a father, that in reality he is vastly more unlike a father than he is like one.
I like the idea of starting with the Loftus outsider test of faith as I think you suggested before. I tend to deploy it in conversation it truthfully have never given it a close scrutiny. It seems to have an intuitive force but as we know that does not mean it is correct! If you actually meant another of the Loftus texts those would be fine as well
AbsolutelyI've quickly read it, but I haven't given it close scrutiny either, and since Loftus is an intelligence guy, it may be good mental exercise for both of us. Who knows, I might even learn something in the process.
I think we can just use Loftus' "Outsider Test" essay found in "The Christian Delusion," since that book is one we both already have (convenient, that, ay!?). Also, Loftus says that a few additional points pertaining to his test are in his first book, "Why I Became An Atheist," which I have as well, and I can just as easily add any pertinent details I find there into our conversation if needed. All that we need to decide upon is our approach to discussing the material. Preferably, I'd like to read and comment on Loftus' text paragraph by paragraph, but I realize that may not be practical; maybe instead we could discuss 2 or 3 pages at a time. That way, various details that may need to be scrutinized don't get lost in the succession of Loftus' supporting points. Does this sound acceptable to you?
2PhiloVoid
I'm glad it was one that you wanted to provide insight for.What a great question, sorry I missed it.
As a Christian my first thought was of Pharaoh and his mindset being the same as his magicians creating the same effect.In essence what happened was that as I read the atheist arguments I began to doubt the need for the God hypothesis. See people fall down in church, slain in the spirit ...watch David Brown an atheist magician and mentalist create the same effect.
So you would say that your Christianity rested on feelings?Posit the Christian God as necessary for a sense of overwhelming peace and a feeling of understanding your place in the universe... Read accounts of that same feeling in other religions and in atheists as well for that matter. And on and on it goes. Eventually there was nothing I could point to that would confirm that the Christian God existed.
From our previous discussions I would venture to say that perhaps a better statement on evidence for you would be that evidence that supports God would be considered unknowns or don't knows and you feel the answer while not being known is as far as you are concerned most likely to be from natural caused phenomena...is that a valid assumption?After I began to realize that, it was a shorter journey into believing that Christianity was it only not well supported by evidence but also had some internal coherence issues (based on my understanding of what Christianity is) and that even if those coherence issues could be salvaged, that the deity represented in the Bible, even if real, was perhaps not one that I would worship as a good.
Don't feel like I said that very well but it is the best I can do for tonight.
I am sorry, I think I am missing your point in some way.2 Timothy 3:8
The Talmud says they were a part of making the golden calf.
The book of Jasher also tells about them.
Wow, just not getting this. I'm sorry that I am not grasping your point here. What do you mean by people thinking falling backwards is for Christians? What do you mean by falling backwards?It just amazes me that these two men were even allowed to leave Egypt
with the Hebrews/if they did.. Today...why do people think falling backwards is for
Christians? In the Bible they fell on their knees and faces to honor God.
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