How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

SPF · Mar 27, 2019

This makes me laugh.

Justified says: "Babies are not aborted in the birth canal for medical reasons. It's called infanticide or "partial birth abortion" and it has never, in history, been done for medical reasons."

FireDragon responds by saying that unless Justified is an actual doctor that he can't make that claim. Yet, then FireDragon (who is also not a doctor) says.... "The pregnancies aborted at such a late stage are nonviable and there are health risks to the mother."

So I just have to wonder... why does Justified have to be a doctor to make his statement but FireDragon doesn't have to be a doctor to make his statement? They're both assertions.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Abortion is legal in all US states, and every state has at least one abortion clinic.
Abortion in the United States by state - Wikipedia

Why Is Abortion Legal in the United States?

Uh-huh. It's still wrong.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
None of the Scriptures you cite indicate that God has abdicated His role as our Moral Lawgiver and Sovereign ruler of the universe. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God has left it up to any government of sinful man to decide what is right and wrong. You, not me, have the burden of proof and you have failed to meet that burden. Your claims are false, and the Bible does not say what you are trying to assign to it.

It was Jesus that claimed the actions of local government are the Fathers will.
It's pretty clear, but all Christians are blinded to the fact that Jesus announces to the world that His crusifiction is not the will of society, but is the will of His Father. And he backs up this "claim" with His own life. That's a pretty powerful argument Jesus makes. For God to be put to death by the local legal system and then say that the process is the Fathers will.

So yes. It is a rock solid lesson.

Matt 26
51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Later that day.....

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

And every single passage about local government backs it.
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

I have no burden to show what the 20 passages referring to government mean. One of them explains itself:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

What's missing is "....unless it conflicts with Scripture" which every person imagines they see. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2019

SPF said:
This makes me laugh.

Justified says: "Babies are not aborted in the birth canal for medical reasons. It's called infanticide or "partial birth abortion" and it has never, in history, been done for medical reasons."

FireDragon responds by saying that unless Justified is an actual doctor that he can't make that claim. Yet, then FireDragon (who is also not a doctor) says.... "The pregnancies aborted at such a late stage are nonviable and there are health risks to the mother."

So I just have to wonder... why does Justified have to be a doctor to make his statement but FireDragon doesn't have to be a doctor to make his statement? They're both assertions.

I've actually researched abortion, that's the difference. When I face an ethical challenge and I feel I must take a stand on something, I like to know the actual facts.

I'm not saying illegal and/or unethical abortions never happen, obvious they do. But characterizing most abortion providers as killing viables babies in the birth canal is propaganda.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
It was Jesus that claimed the actions of local government are the Fathers will.
It's pretty clear, but all Christians are blinded to the fact that Jesus announces to the world that His crusifiction is not the will of society, but is the will of His Father. And he backs up this "claim" with His own life. That's a pretty powerful argument Jesus makes. For God to be put to death by the local legal system and then say that the process is the Fathers will.

So yes. It is a rock solid lesson.

Matt 26
51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Later that day.....

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

Jesus was under direction to carry out the obligation resting upon him.

God's purposes were being carried out in the trial, and not a man's.

The blame rested with the Jews that had given Jesus to the Gentiles. Their sin would destroy them.

Jesus judges the work according to the heart. Pilate's sin isn't as great as Caiaphas'.

Pilate sought to release Jesus. But as Christ had told him, the matter was in God's hands.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
The problem with that article is that it clearly shows the Supreme Court (SCOTUS) overstepping its constitutional boundaries.

The challenge does not remove it from any books.

There are no laws legalizing breathing, yet it is a legal activity.

SPF · Mar 27, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I've actually researched abortion, that's the difference. When I face an ethical challenge and I feel I must take a stand on something, I like to know the actual facts.

I'm not saying illegal and/or unethical abortions never happen, obvious they do. But characterizing most abortion providers as killing viables babies in the birth canal is propaganda.

Ok, so doing research, not being a doctor, is what gives someone the ability to make assertions? That's not what you told Justified, but thanks for clarifying.

Also, as a side note, I'm not sure really how extensive your research has been. You claim that late term abortions are almost exclusively done for medical reasons. This isn't actually true. Could you provide your research material that demonstrates this?

"Kimport, a medical sociologist at UCSF whose research focuses on gender, sexuality and social movements, followed up on the research in 2018 with 28 new interviews of women who got later abortions. She said about half were lacking critical health information about their fetus earlier in their pregnancy.

The other half of the women had challenges finding a provider, getting necessary approvals from doctors in states that require them, or had financial constraints. All the women in the study traveled to other states to get the procedure done."

The above research indicates that perhaps half of late term abortions are for convenience reasons? That's certainly an alarming statistic.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
It was Jesus that claimed the actions of local government are the Fathers will.
It's pretty clear, but all Christians are blinded to the fact that Jesus announces to the world that His crusifiction is not the will of society, but is the will of His Father. And he backs up this "claim" with His own life. That's a pretty powerful argument Jesus makes. For God to be put to death by the local legal system and then say that the process is the Fathers will.

So yes. It is a rock solid lesson.

Matt 26
51 At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Later that day.....

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

And every single passage about local government backs it.
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

I have no burden to show what the 20 passages referring to government mean. One of them explains itself:

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

What's missing is "....unless it conflicts with Scripture" which every person imagines they see. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

None of that means that God has abdicated his authority to earthly governments. Sorry, but you are simply incorrect in the way you handle those texts. You reading something into those texts that are not there.

You support murdering little babies. That is really sad.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
The challenge does not remove it from any books.

There are no laws legalizing breathing, yet it is a legal activity.

That is a ridiculous analogy.

The fact is that you claim that the SCOTUS legalized abortion, but constitutionally, they did not. There are no laws on the books making abortion legal, period.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2019

SPF said:
Ok, so doing research, not being a doctor, is what gives someone the ability to make assertions? That's not what you told Justified, but thanks for clarifying.

Also, as a side note, I'm not sure really how extensive your research has been. You claim that late term abortions are almost exclusively done for medical reasons. This isn't actually true. Could you provide your research material that demonstrates this?

"Kimport, a medical sociologist at UCSF whose research focuses on gender, sexuality and social movements, followed up on the research in 2018 with 28 new interviews of women who got later abortions. She said about half were lacking critical health information about their fetus earlier in their pregnancy.

The other half of the women had challenges finding a provider, getting necessary approvals from doctors in states that require them, or had financial constraints. All the women in the study traveled to other states to get the procedure done."

The above research indicates that perhaps half of late term abortions are for convenience reasons? That's certainly an alarming statistic.

The Roe regime permits states to restrict late term abortions when there isn't a case for the mental or physical health of the mother being jeopardized by pregnancy.

I do not accept the language of "convenience" to criticize abortion, I think that trivializes a woman's life, including her mental health.

SkyWriting · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
That is a ridiculous analogy.

The fact is that you claim that the SCOTUS legalized abortion, but constitutionally, they did not. There are no laws on the books making abortion legal, period.

You said law on the books, per your original and again repeated claim.
They could be written in crayon by a passing Russian, but it is there.

There are no laws legalizing life for Zygotes, but there should be since 50% never make it, naturally.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I've actually researched abortion, that's the difference.
.

But you're not a doctor. So you need to hold yourself to the same standard you are holding me to. Otherwise your position is hypocritical.

When I face an ethical challenge and I feel I must take a stand on something, I like to know the actual facts.

I'm not saying illegal and/or unethical abortions never happen, obvious they do. But characterizing most abortion providers as killing viables babies in the birth canal is propaganda

No one said that most do. What was said is that it is now considered acceptable to do so. Abortion is treated as a form of birth control and are done for convenience reasons. No one goes to an abortion clinic for medical necessities, they go to hospitals and hospitals do not perform abortions.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

SkyWriting said:
You said law on the books, per your original and repeated claim.

Right. That means that Congress (the only branch of government that can "legalize" anything) has not legalized abortion. Abortion isn't legal per the law of the land.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
But you're not a doctor. So you need to hold yourself to the same standard you are holding me to. Otherwise your position is hypocritical.

When I face an ethical challenge and I feel I must take a stand on something, I like to know the actual facts.

No one said that most do. What was said is that it is now considered acceptable to do so. Abortion is treated as a form of birth control and are done for convenience reasons. No one goes to an abortion clinic for medical necessities, they go to hospitals and hospitals do not perform abortions.

A friend of mine had an abortion in a hospital.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
But you're not a doctor. So you need to hold yourself to the same standard you are holding me to. Otherwise your position is hypocritical.

When I face an ethical challenge and I feel I must take a stand on something, I like to know the actual facts.

No one said that most do. What was said is that it is now considered acceptable to do so. Abortion is treated as a form of birth control and are done for convenience reasons. No one goes to an abortion clinic for medical necessities, they go to hospitals and hospitals do not perform abortions.

Some hospitals do perform abortions, though it is rare. Only about 4% of abortions are performed in hospitals. Most abortions in the US involve early pregnancies and can be handled at clinics.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
The Roe regime permits states to restrict late term abortions when there isn't a case for the mental or physical health of the mother being jeopardized by pregnancy.

I do not accept the language of "convenience" to criticize abortion, I think that trivializes a woman's life, including her mental health.

LOL, talk about "propaganda."

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
A friend of mine had an abortion in a hospital.

No she didn't.

Ttalkkugjil · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
No she didn't.

Yes, actually she did. It was considered as necessary for her health.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2019

Justified112 said:
LOL, talk about "propaganda."

That just shows how misogynistic your whole case against abortion is, that you equate concern for a woman's life with propaganda.

Justified112 · Mar 27, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Some hospitals do perform abortions, though it is rare. Only about 4% of abortions are performed in hospitals. Most abortions in the US involve early pregnancies and can be handled at clinics.

No, abortions are never done in hospitals. Abortion violates the Hippocratic oath. They terminate pregnancies, but they do not do abortions. The problem lies with the assumption that ALL terminated pregnancies are "abortions."

Abortions are done at the murder mills you call "clinics."

How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?

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