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How can a loving God hate love?

Catherineanne

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Christ did speak of love, but love in the way it was meant to be...not the perversion of love that we see in today's society.

If it is a perversion of love then it is not love.

Christ's love is sacrificial, and always focussed on the emotional or spritual nurturing of the other person. Any love which we show which is of this nature cannot at the same time be abusive.

If it is abusive, it is not love. If it is sacrificial, then it is.

It is a total nonsense to say that because two same sex people express their love sexually, that love is then perverted. It very much depends whether they are expressing their love for a purely selfish reason, or for a nurturing reason. The same applies to any other relationship. A husband who relates to his wife in a purely selfish way is abusing his relationship with her, and this is in no way sanctioned by his marriage certificate.

It is far too simplistic to say gay is profane, hetero is holy. What is actually profane is abuse, in any relationship on earth.
 
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Catherineanne

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So we should disregard the writings of Paul, which is a large part of the NT? Just because God didn't come down from Heaven and write the Bible Himself, we shouldn't believe the Scriptures? Or we should only believe the ones that suit us?

We should read every word as if Christ himself sits beside us, as indeed he does, and as if he is reading each word to us. And we should believe in him, not in the words he is reading. Christ does not speak with the voice of condemnation, judgement and hatred, but with compassion and love. Christ weeps at the sight of Jerusalem, which he knows will be destroyed. He does not gloat over its downfall.
 
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Der Alte

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So we should disregard the writings of Paul, which is a large part of the NT? Just because God didn't come down from Heaven and write the Bible Himself, we shouldn't believe the Scriptures? Or we should only believe the ones that suit us?

We should read every word as if Christ himself sits beside us, as indeed he does, and as if he is reading each word to us. And we should believe in him, not in the words he is reading. Christ does not speak with the voice of condemnation, judgement and hatred, but with compassion and love. Christ weeps at the sight of Jerusalem, which he knows will be destroyed. He does not gloat over its downfall.

Paul prophesied this would happen.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;​
 
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brightmorningstar

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Dear Catherineanna,
You are welcome to this opinion, as long as you realise that it is not backed up in Scripture. There is not a single Bible verse that tells you that Scripture is equal in status to God, and therefore you have to face the truth that anyone with such a view of the Bible is not being biblical, and that others will, therefore, absolutely not agree with it.
But I never said it was, in fact I said one couldn't say it was. You attempted to correct me of something I didnt say.
But I remind you that I did point out that scripture says all scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching and correcting.. to which one might claim God's word is equal in status to the God who delivered it.

neither can God be contained or equalled by a book.
which I think is what the Bible says John 21:25, John 5:39.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Dear Catherineanna,
We should read every word as if Christ himself sits beside us, as indeed he does, and as if he is reading each word to us.
Well His Spirit is in us so it reminds us of the truth of all He taught.
Christ does not speak with the voice of condemnation, judgement and hatred, but with compassion and love.
well yes and no, He came to save not condemn, for those who are in Him there is no codemnation, but I hope no-one has suggested He codemns anyone. The problem is that without Christ's salvation we are left condemed to death... as He taught recorded in a number of places in the NT. Christ has set us free not to sin.
 
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Time4AChange

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If it is a perversion of love then it is not love.
Could not have said it a better myself.
Christ's love is sacrificial, and always focussed on the emotional or spritual nurturing of the other person. Any love which we show which is of this nature cannot at the same time be abusive.
Michael Jackson would be the first to say that that's the kind of love he has for those children. Makes it right? A 14 year old girl could believe with her whole heart that she "loves" a 25 year old man in the same way that you just described it. And he could really believe that that's the way he feels about her. According to you, why should we stop them if the have such a beautiful love for each other?

If it is abusive, it is not love
No objection there my sister.
If it is sacrificial, then it is.
Sounds really good, but not true. What do you think sinners do? They SACRIFICE the gift that Jesus gave us for the LOVE of their sins...is that love good? after all it's sacrificial. The Bible says the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. When ppl love money they're willing to sacrifice ALOT. They can sacrifice their integrity, their friends, family, whatever...all because they have this great "love" good?...after all it's sacrificial.

It is a total nonsense to say that because two same sex people express their love sexually, that love is then perverted.
If that's the case then the scriptures teaches us total nonsense, and by Jesus encouraging us to read it...He wants to lead us astray. Sorry, doesn't sound like my God. And contrary to what you're trying to say, we are supposed to value the scriptures and read it. http://www.christianforums.com/t5353929-some-of-us-seem-to-be-overlooking-a-very-important-fact.html As a Christian, you should be glad to see what Christ said. In post 6 i show a few times when he talks about the scripture.

It very much depends whether they are expressing their love for a purely selfish reason, or for a nurturing reason.
Sin is sin, whether it's so called "nurturing" or not. What you're saying sounds so beautiful and everything, but it doesn't make it right. You're trying to appeal to my emotions by making God's love out to be something it's not. Everything you say sounds wonderful, but it doesn't make it what's right.

A husband who relates to his wife in a purely selfish way is abusing his relationship with her, and this is in no way sanctioned by his marriage certificate.
No argument there

It is far too simplistic to say gay is profane, hetero is holy. What is actually profane is abuse, in any relationship on earth.
Jesus said that unless we come to Him as little children, we will not inherit the Kingdom. Why would He say something like that? Because little children are "simplistic" in their ways. If their daddy tells them something, they just believe it. Especially if they have a father that's never let them down before. They hold on to what he says, and they believe it...no ifs, ands or buts. That's the way we're to be with Christ, and unless we're like that, we won't inherit the Kingdom. Not my words, it's Christ's. When we get in trouble is when we start leaning on our own understanding. We get to smart for God, and we over-analize EVERYTHING instead of holding Him to his word like a little child does with his/her father.

I really don't even know why i took the time to respond the way i did...cuz i have a feeling you'll just dismiss it altogether. Regardless, i thank God for his love towards all of us. He said He'll never leave us nor forsake us, and it's so true...ALL of our questions He's answered them. All we need to know is ask and we'll receive, seek and we'll find. He's faithful enough to answer every question if we come before Him in submission. Thank You Jesus.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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Love is:

Mutual - It's felt on both sides.
Sacrificial - Love is favored over selfish wants.
Intimate - Physically and spiritually.

If two men or two women share that sort of love, who are you to question it? How do you know God doesn't permit it? I've seen homosexual relationships that share those three characteristics far better than heterosexual ones.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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I wouldn't, for the simple reason that it would not be God talking. A loving God would never order anyone to destroy themselves. Our Lord understood this when he was tempted to throw himself off a cliff, and I think we would do well to remember the same.
But this thing is, I believe God's will is stronger. If people were lined up on said cliff and told that those who believe in God would be pushed off, I wouldn't deny it. Because either I die and find heaven or God's will pushes my life farther.
 
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Mikedatigah

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Lets drop the Bible for a second


No need to go any further into this discussion because without the bible, we are simply leaves blowing wherever the wind decides to blow us. The wind is the current whim of man, and the fashion of the day. Ground yourself in truth and in the rock, and there will be no confusion in your mind, and you won't find yourself aimlessly bumping into these things.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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No need to go any further into this discussion because without the bible, we are simply leaves blowing wherever the wind decides to blow us. The wind is the current whim of man, and the fashion of the day. Ground yourself in truth and in the rock, and there will be no confusion in your mind, and you won't find yourself aimlessly bumping into these things.
The Bible isn't the truth. God is the truth and you can't treat the Bible like Him. Maybe try praying without Biblical bias?
 
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Mikedatigah

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The Bible isn't the truth. God is the truth and you can't treat the Bible like Him. Maybe try praying without Biblical bias?


To whom would I be praying to but a god of my own making rather than The God and Creator of us all?

Do you not think that God, the Creator of the universe is able to ensure that His message would be passed to us uncorrupted? He who has made the wonder of this world, and all this is on it and inhabits it, including you and I, is unable to make sure you know truth?

Tell you what... Without the bible, there is no need to pray to anyone. Matter of fact, I fail to see the reason to live without it. The only time I actually DID find Him and His very real presence in my life is when I read the bible seriously on a daily basis and prayed. THEN, and only then was I changed in both my heart and spirit to the point where I had TRUE LOVE and concern for all my fellow men and women come into my heart. Without that, I am as lost in an ocean of unanswered questions and bewilderment as anyone who does not serve the Living God in Scripture.... aka... HIS MANUAL FOR OUR LIFE, and HIS WILL as well. You can no more know His will than you can Who God is without the bible. I KNOW... I have tried it, and it is another dead end.
 
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Bianca87

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Michael Jackson would be the first to say that that's the kind of love he has for those children. Makes it right? A 14 year old girl could believe with her whole heart that she "loves" a 25 year old man in the same way that you just described it. And he could really believe that that's the way he feels about her. According to you, why should we stop them if the have such a beautiful love for each other?
I had a 25 yo boyfriend at 15 and that never had anything wrong...legal consent in Europe is usually 14/15,, but I think it depends from the situation and it's a very hard line to draw.
About jackson(wasn't he innocent in the end?')...people should stoooop confusing consensual gay sex whit pedophilia. Baside the fact that it can also be heterosexual, it's a crime where you hurt and destroy somebody innocent with no choice or defense!
KEY word- consensual
 
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brightmorningstar

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Dear TheFathersdaughter,
Without the Bible how do you know God is the truth? Which God?

Love is:

Mutual - It's felt on both sides.
Sacrificial - Love is favored over selfish wants.
Intimate - Physically and spiritually.

If two men or two women share that sort of love, who are you to question it? How do you know God doesn't permit it? I've seen homosexual relationships that share those three characteristics far better than heterosexual ones
No not according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, Christ's love was for some who hated him, it wasnt mutual, and neither is ours to be if we are His disciples. Two men or two women can share that love, its called fellowship, Jesus taught us to love one another as He loved us. We know because we have the Bible.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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Dear TheFathersdaughter,
Without the Bible how do you know God is the truth? Which God?

No not according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, Christ's love was for some who hated him, it wasnt mutual, and neither is ours to be if we are His disciples. Two men or two women can share that love, its called fellowship, Jesus taught us to love one another as He loved us. We know because we have the Bible.

There you go twisting words. If you can't understand by that last part (the intimate part) that I'm talking about romantic love, you're not even trying. There are several forms of love. God's love for His people is the strongest but it isn't romantic love. Also, just because the Bible isn't ultimate truth doesn't mean it doesn't contain truth. The story of the resurrection is what makes the Bible a physical representation of God today, but it still isn't His equal. It isn't even the Ark of the Covenants equal. It's just telling the story.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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To whom would I be praying to but a god of my own making rather than The God and Creator of us all?

Do you not think that God, the Creator of the universe is able to ensure that His message would be passed to us uncorrupted? He who has made the wonder of this world, and all this is on it and inhabits it, including you and I, is unable to make sure you know truth?

Tell you what... Without the bible, there is no need to pray to anyone. Matter of fact, I fail to see the reason to live without it. The only time I actually DID find Him and His very real presence in my life is when I read the bible seriously on a daily basis and prayed. THEN, and only then was I changed in both my heart and spirit to the point where I had TRUE LOVE and concern for all my fellow men and women come into my heart. Without that, I am as lost in an ocean of unanswered questions and bewilderment as anyone who does not serve the Living God in Scripture.... aka... HIS MANUAL FOR OUR LIFE, and HIS WILL as well. You can no more know His will than you can Who God is without the bible. I KNOW... I have tried it, and it is another dead end.

I think that God gave us free will. He could but He isn't going too. That was His promise. Reading the Bible creates the bias in your brain and clouds actually prayer. Because if the Bible is presented as "all you need to know" then you're going to expect God to say the same. That's how the human mind works. If you grew up being taught that the sky was green and nothing else, you would be convinced that the sky is green. Nothing can change your mind unless you let someone convince. If you think "oh the Bible is completely right all the time" then when you pray, that will remain and you won't actually let God TALK to you. Prayer is a double sided coin. You have to listen as much as you talk.

And also, you say that last part because it's in the Bible. Just because the Bible says it, if it isn't absolute truth then it's just as likely false. The thing about the Bible is you can tell when is truly by Christ and what's by man. What's by Christ is driven by love and gentle words. Even in anger Christ managed to remain just. However there are parts that are strictly "This is bad" that AREN'T Christs words. You have to be able to differentiate which is which.

Likewise, if the devil can interfere with my conversation with God, what makes you think he couldn't interfere with Paul's or the translators of the KJV Bible?
 
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DaveS

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To whom would I be praying to but a god of my own making rather than The God and Creator of us all?

I would be pretty impressed if anyone has ever actually prayed to God by your definition! You make it sound as if one must have to know everything about God in order to truly believe as otherwise what you are praying to is not God - this is quite simply impossible! If we could fully comprehend God then He would no longer be God.

Do you not think that God, the Creator of the universe is able to ensure that His message would be passed to us uncorrupted? He who has made the wonder of this world, and all this is on it and inhabits it, including you and I, is unable to make sure you know truth?

The problem is that there is significant evidence to show the the Bible has been corrupted - even if you just look at two versions of the Bible in the same language! You must also consider such people as Joseph Smith and the New Translation --- this should not be possible under your logic.

Tell you what... Without the bible, there is no need to pray to anyone. Matter of fact, I fail to see the reason to live without it. The only time I actually DID find Him and His very real presence in my life is when I read the bible seriously on a daily basis and prayed. THEN, and only then was I changed in both my heart and spirit to the point where I had TRUE LOVE and concern for all my fellow men and women come into my heart. Without that, I am as lost in an ocean of unanswered questions and bewilderment as anyone who does not serve the Living God in Scripture.... aka... HIS MANUAL FOR OUR LIFE, and HIS WILL as well. You can no more know His will than you can Who God is without the bible. I KNOW... I have tried it, and it is another dead end.

The early Christians prior to Nicea were in serious trouble then... you must also consider that before the Reformation/advent of Protestantism very few people could actually read the Bible anyway. I would therefore fundamentally disagree --- you can pray on love and faith alone; you do not need to follow a specific prayer formula!
 
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RMDY

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There you go twisting words. If you can't understand by that last part (the intimate part) that I'm talking about romantic love, you're not even trying. There are several forms of love. God's love for His people is the strongest but it isn't romantic love. Also, just because the Bible isn't ultimate truth doesn't mean it doesn't contain truth. The story of the resurrection is what makes the Bible a physical representation of God today, but it still isn't His equal. It isn't even the Ark of the Covenants equal. It's just telling the story.

Jesus once also said that true love would be laying down your life for your friends and to love one another as you would love yourself, not to have man-to-man sex, which goes against what Paul, Peter, and other diciples agreed with at the time: that sexual immorality was something christians must stay away from.
 
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DaveS

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Jesus once also said that true love would be laying down your life for your friends and to love one another as you would love yourself, not to have man-to-man sex, which goes against what Paul, Peter, and other diciples agreed with at the time: that sexual immorality was something christians must stay away from.

What law says that gay couples can't have true love? Why can't they engage in self-less love? Do you consider them in some way sub-human?
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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Jesus once also said that true love would be laying down your life for your friends and to love one another as you would love yourself, not to have man-to-man sex, which goes against what Paul, Peter, and other diciples agreed with at the time: that sexual immorality was something christians must stay away from.
By that logic, we shouldn't be having sex period. A homosexual relationship isn't all about sex love. It's far more than that. What gives you the right to assume that ALL homosexuals only care of sex and wouldn't lay down their life for others. In any case, like I said, love comes in many form. In Hebrew, they even have three distinct words and they're still general.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]The problem is that there is significant evidence to show the the Bible has been corrupted - even if you just look at two versions of the Bible in the same language! You must also consider such people as Joseph Smith and the New Translation --- this should not be possible under your logic.[/SIZE]

There is ZERO evidence that the "Bible" has been corrupted! NONE! ZERO! NADA!

I worked in law enforcement at one time. I have seen counterfeit currency. The fact that someone makes fake money does NOT make genuine money bad, false, etc. The fact that some "churches" make their own corrupt translations of the Bible does NOT make the Bible bad, false, etc.

Were one to actually study about their Bible they might learn, for example, in 1948 a shepherd boy looking for some lost sheep, found some old scrolls in a cave, near the Dead sea, in Israel. A short time later more scrolls were found in Qumran not too far away. Those scrolls proved to be portions of every book, in the O.T., except Esther.

These manuscripts prove that we, today, have the same O.T., that Jesus had.
 
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