How Calvin-ist are some Calvin-ists?

[atpollard]

So if you had to summarize into bullet points the distinctions between Calvin’s theology and TULIP/five point Calvinism/predestination, how would you do it?

I could not. I am not sufficiently familiar with the actual writings of John Calvin. From tertiary sources, I have inferred that John Calvin was willing to acknowledge that “Limited Atonement” made logical sense, but he (John Calvin) could not personally bring himself to defend it on Scriptural grounds … John believed that the Bible was silent on this matter, so he could not affirm the logical conclusion as Biblical fact.

That would be one point of difference between John and “TULIP”.

I am more familiar with the position of the Synod of Dort and with several of the Confessions of Faith to emerge from the Protestant Reformation. I am also familiar with the history of the Baptist Church and its two branches and non-Roman Catholic Protest precursors. However the writings of John Calvin never particularly interested me (nor do the writings of Origen or Augustine, although both were also important historic theologians).

 

[The Liturgist]

I could not. I am not sufficiently familiar with the actual writings of John Calvin. From tertiary sources, I have inferred that John Calvin was willing to acknowledge that “Limited Atonement” made logical sense, but he (John Calvin) could not personally bring himself to defend it on Scriptural grounds … John believed that the Bible was silent on this matter, so he could not affirm the logical conclusion as Biblical fact.

That would be one point of difference between John and “TULIP”.

I am more familiar with the position of the Synod of Dort and with several of the Confessions of Faith to emerge from the Protestant Reformation. I am also familiar with the history of the Baptist Church and its two branches and non-Roman Catholic Protest precursors. However the writings of John Calvin never particularly interested me (nor do the writings of Origen or Augustine, although both were also important historic theologians).

I do find Origen really interesting, but otherwise I agree I myself am not greatly interested in St. Augustine; of much greater interest to me among Patristic authors are Saints Irenaeus, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Isidore of Seville, Hilary of Poitiers, Cyril of Jerusalem, Serapion of Thmuis, Pachomius, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, Psuedo Dionysius the Aeropagite, Vincent of Lerins, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor, Symeon the New, and Gregory Palamas, and I find some of the Syriac and Greco-Syriac fathers particularly fascinating, including St. John of Damascus, St. Severus of Antioch, St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus, St. Dionysius bar Salibi, St. Philoxenus of Mabbug, and several others. I gobble up the latest translations as soon as Sebastian Brock and the like complete them.

In general Patristic authors interest me more than Scholastic authors and the Reformers. Protestant theology later became more compelling with writings by John Wesley, Edward Pusey, Dom Gregory Dix, Soren Kierkegaard, CS Lewis and others who really pushed the envelope. And I have an intense love for Eastern Orthodox monastic authors like St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, St. Macarius of Corinth, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, who is still alive.

 

[atpollard]

Protestant theology later became more compelling with writings by John Wesley, Edward Pusey, Dom Gregory Dix, Soren Kierkegaard, CS Lewis and others who really pushed the envelope. And I have an intense love for Eastern Orthodox monastic authors like St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, St. Macarius of Corinth, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, who is still alive.

Among Baptists, there is Charles H. Spurgeon as the “John Wesley” of Baptist Theology. Where you will find Spurgeon different is that he did not write “theology for theologians” … he was a pastor, with a heart for evangelism, writing weekly sermons to call and exhort and encourage. It is within this framework that he presents scripture and it’s exposition as something living and contemporary and engaged in life changing service of those that hear it and in glorifying God.

Here is a sample from his “morning reading” for this Sunday (part of 365 morning and evening readings):

Ye must be born again. —John 3:7​

Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are "born again," for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being "born again," is a matter so mysterious,that human words cannot describe it. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been "born again," your acknowledgment will be, "O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, Thou art my spiritual Parent; unless Thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day 'dead in trespasses and sins.' My heavenly life is wholly derived from Thee, to Thee I ascribe it. 'My life is hid with Christ in God.' It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me." May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.
​

 

[The Liturgist]

Among Baptists, there is Charles H. Spurgeon as the “John Wesley” of Baptist Theology. Where you will find Spurgeon different is that he did not write “theology for theologians” … he was a pastor, with a heart for evangelism, writing weekly sermons to call and exhort and encourage. It is within this framework that he presents scripture and it’s exposition as something living and contemporary and engaged in life changing service of those that hear it and in glorifying God.

Here is a sample from his “morning reading” for this Sunday (part of 365 morning and evening readings):

Ye must be born again. —John 3:7​

Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are "born again," for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being "born again," is a matter so mysterious,that human words cannot describe it. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been "born again," your acknowledgment will be, "O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, Thou art my spiritual Parent; unless Thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day 'dead in trespasses and sins.' My heavenly life is wholly derived from Thee, to Thee I ascribe it. 'My life is hid with Christ in God.' It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me." May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.​

Indeed Spurgeon was a great preacher. Note that most of the ancient figures I quoted are known mainly or exclusively for preaching, including all of the Syriac fathers I mentioned except St. Isaac the Syrian, who was a monastic. There were relatively few who were mainly theologians, or to be more precise, scholars of divinity, most notable among these would be the recent Eastern Orthodox figures and also St. Gregory Palamas. In many cases the only surviving writings are sermons or homilies, including metrical, sung homilies, which are a thing in Syriac Christianity, for which St. Ephrem and St. Jacob of Sarugh in particular are remembered, as well as Mar Narsai, who I am less of a fan of.

I have always wondered what it would be like being at a service where the sermon is a poem that gets sung to you; in the case of St. Ephrem, he was a deacon and he sang his metrical homilies in the bazaar, to convert people and also to discourage Arianism, which was the major raging heresy of the 4th century, like Mormonism today, only infinitely more influential, since every emperor from Constantius through Valens except for Julian the Apostate, who was a Neo-Platonic Pagan, was Arian rather than Christian.

 

[hedrick]

Among Baptists, there is Charles H. Spurgeon as the “John Wesley” of Baptist Theology. Where you will find Spurgeon different is that he did not write “theology for theologians” … he was a pastor, with a heart for evangelism, writing weekly sermons to call and exhort and encourage. It is within this framework that he presents scripture and it’s exposition as something living and contemporary and engaged in life changing service of those that hear it and in glorifying God.

Here is a sample from his “morning reading” for this Sunday (part of 365 morning and evening readings):

Ye must be born again. —John 3:7​

Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are "born again," for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being "born again," is a matter so mysterious,that human words cannot describe it. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been "born again," your acknowledgment will be, "O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, Thou art my spiritual Parent; unless Thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day 'dead in trespasses and sins.' My heavenly life is wholly derived from Thee, to Thee I ascribe it. 'My life is hid with Christ in God.' It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me." May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.​

Of course the text actually means born from above. Nicodemus misunderstands the ambiguous Greek, a typical Johannine device.

Anchor Bible says
John 3:3 (Gospel according to John (1–12) (AYBC)): from above. The Gr. anōthen means both “again” and “from above,” and the double meaning is used here as part of the technique of misunderstanding. Although in vs. 4 Nicodemus takes Jesus to have meant “again,” Jesus’ primary meaning in vs. 3 was “from above.” This is indicated from the parallel in 3:31, as well as from the two other Johannine uses of anōthen (19:11, 23). Such a misunderstanding is possible only in Greek; we know of no Hebrew or Aramaic word of similar meaning which would have this spatial and temporal ambiguity. Once again, it is not impossible that the meaning “again” is intended by John on a secondary, sacramental level—see Comment.

So also the other two commentaries I have on John.

The nature of the new life as described by Spurgeon isn’t completely changed by the translation, but it does have effects. It also tends to downplay the baptismal connection.

 

[The Liturgist]

Of course the text actually means born from above. Nicodemus misunderstands the ambiguous Greek, a typical Johannine device.

Anchor Bible says
John 3:3 (Gospel according to John (1–12) (AYBC)): from above. The Gr. anōthen means both “again” and “from above,” and the double meaning is used here as part of the technique of misunderstanding. Although in vs. 4 Nicodemus takes Jesus to have meant “again,” Jesus’ primary meaning in vs. 3 was “from above.” This is indicated from the parallel in 3:31, as well as from the two other Johannine uses of anōthen (19:11, 23). Such a misunderstanding is possible only in Greek; we know of no Hebrew or Aramaic word of similar meaning which would have this spatial and temporal ambiguity. Once again, it is not impossible that the meaning “again” is intended by John on a secondary, sacramental level—see Comment.

So also the other two commentaries I have on John.

The nature of the new life as described by Spurgeon isn’t completely changed by the translation, but it does have effects. It also tends to downplay the baptismal connection.

Indeed. My view of Spurgeon was that he was a good preacher, but I am not a Baptist nor a proponent of that form of evangelism, because I believe their sacramental theology is erroneous and was originally based on misinterpretations such as this, and is perpetuated through force of tradition, although to be fair modern Baptist theologians such as Al Mohler I tend ro greatly respect on issues of moral theology, and given the excellence of several of the SBC seminarians, among the SBC denomination at least the meaning of anothen is obviously properly understood, given the effort that many of their programs put into knowledge of Biblical languages.

 

[atpollard]

The nature of the new life as described by Spurgeon isn’t completely changed by the translation, but it does have effects. It also tends to downplay the baptismal connection.

Given WHEN Spurgeon preached (1854-1892), he used the KJV translation because it was the Bible available in English outside of obscure translations from pre-19th Century.

"Born from Above" fits better with Jesus intended meaning, but "Born Again" fits better with the conversation with Nicodemus. The double (ambiguous) meaning seems important to understanding the biblical context of what is being said ... so English cannot adequately translate the word (that's what the footnotes are for).

 

[atpollard]

Nicodemus misunderstands the ambiguous Greek, a typical Johannine device.

Would Jesus and Nicodemus have been conversing in Greek about the Kingdom of God and the Torah?
The "misunderstanding" seems innate to human thought ... we THINK we need one thing, when we actually need something completely different. The Greek merely expresses this TRUTH admirably.
YMMV.