How bad is it to be a sinner?

Radagast · Jul 18, 2005

LittleLion said:
...My flesh does not war against the Spirit. It is something else that wars against the Spirit.

It's the dark part of us that wars against the Spirit -- but I pray that you will see the light

-- Radagast

heron · Jul 18, 2005

Littlelion,

We have talked about sin in general, and this has inadvertently turned back on you. I think you are either asking about problem-solving, maybe unsettled areas about Christianity working, or about a phrase you'd heard, implicating non-Christians as sinners. I apologize for ignoring your comments.

Yesterday our pastor gave the example of temptation to sin. He approached different individuals, and said, "Go rob a bank." Obviously, no one got up to do it. He pointed out that we each have internal limits, rationales, and we are not tempted by everything that crosses our mind.

I can eat, drink and sleep. This is all I can do. And think about God. I have no lust to give in to, no other desire but to get out of this darkness I am in now. My flesh does not war against the Spirit. It is something else that wars against the Spirit....
But this doesn't seem to bring me anywhere further.

Avoidance of sin actually does protect us from doing some stupid things that set us backward. But the focus of the Christian life is not on sin; it's on appreciating what God does for us.

Preachers shout out "sinner!" as if to separate the forgiven from those who have not chosen forgiveness, but we are all sinners.

If you are trying to make Christianity work, and things aren't happening as you expect, try a few things:

- Using God's promises to apply to your own life
- Accepting help from God, leaning on Him
- Checking your heart for unforgiveness
- Asking for wisdom
- Seeing a situation as enhanced by a long-term solution (building character)
- Thank God for ways you see Him working in your life

LittleLion · Jul 18, 2005

ChristianDude777,

Hey Lion,

How are you..?

Mostly, distressed. And something else I can't tell what it is. But thank you for asking.

I think what was meant here is that if we continually ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit when we sin, God will eventually turn us over to the sin and let us "have at it" so to speak. This is somewhat vague in the Scriptures as some point to this idea and other don't. But I do believe that they do teach that if we continually follow sinful lusts, we will eventually reach a line that is very difficult, if not impossible, to turn back from.

There is a saying about health: Your health is like a glass ball. You can drop it a few times without breaking it. But when it breaks, that's it. -- I think this holds true for spiritual health as well. You can do bad for quite some time, and it is still posible to recover. But from some point on, recovery is impossible.
(It is said somewhere that God gives up on people when there is no chance anymore that they get better.)

Just like that, I should say words that are to me just that -- words?

Click to expand...

Do you believe to any degree that prayer to God has any affect..?

I don't believe in magic. This is not to say that prayer is magic. But if I am to say words that I don't understand or say things that I am not attached to, then I am in fact expecting magic. I might as well say abracadabra.

Can you tell me where is sin? Is it between one person and the other, or between a person and God?

Click to expand...

There is the condition of sin, in which we're all born, which is in direction relation to God...(separates us from God so to speak)

Then there are "acts" or "deeds" of sin (stealing, lying, etc). These can be commited against other people or against God (idolatry, etc). The deeds of sin are simlar to the symptoms of the condition of sin.

But ultimately, it is God who decides whether an action was a sin or not, yes? So the sin exists between the sinner and God.
If A gets angry at B and hits him, between A and B is aggression, between A and God is sin.
If B has a bad bacterial infection, and A gives B injections with medicaments, B will be hurt in this, so between A and B exists aggression, but between A and God, there is no sin in this.
The difference is in the motive.

How is a sinner to behave towards another person?

Click to expand...

What does your conscience tell you..?

Good question.
I think my problem here is that I have been taught to behave as if I am the sinner, but the other person is not. So I'd even say that a sinner is to refrain form interacting with others.
I don't agree with this, but I am not sure of any other way either.

Can a sinner love?

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Strange. "You are a sinner, you are bad, bad, and you better shut up, go to your corner and never come out again!" hallows in the back of my mind ...
I find the notion that a sinner could love incomprehensible.

Flesh is the part of us that is non-spiritual. The part of us that wants everything for the ME inside of us.

I'm not so sure though. I don't really think there is a 'me' without God.

If you see someone who needs something...not just wants it really bad but geniunely needs it....what do you do..?

Help. But there is a thought accompanying this. "Have I done this to feel righteous, to feel good about myself? I can't say I really care for that woman whom I carried her bags for. Why then did I do it?"
But I don't think it makes sense to say one must help because one genuinely cared for the other person -- sometimes, this is impossible, as there may exist no relationship whatsoever between you and the person you help.

* * *

heron,

The fruits of the Spirit are not our own strivings, so if you're feeling weak to resist, then lean on that verse. God provides us with help to accomplish things. The results of the Holy Spirit's involvement in your life are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control.

Which verse is that?
(Note that I read the Bible in my native language.)

The gift of redemption is available to all.

Not to start a toughie on this one ... but what you are saying can be argued with exclusive predestination.

* * *

Tamara77777,

I would say NO you shouldn't be ashamed of being a SINNER, because everyone of us is a sinner. Those of us who have accepted JESUS gift of Salvation, are Still SINNERS< but we are SAVED sinners, Saved by HIS GRACE, HIS atonement covers us, and therefore HE is our SAVIOR. It is not on my own merits, or trying to be a good little christian, working hard at being a saved, it is by FAITH that the BLOOD of JESUS upon confession/repentance and IMPORTANT TO NOTE: allowing the HOLY SPIRIT to do His REGENERATION work and cleanse us on the inside out. Does that make sense to you?

It makes sense to me, but probably in a way that doesn't make sense to you.
I don't know the history of your coming to Christianity, but I have discovered one thing: Adult outsiders cannot meaningfully learn about the Gospel in the way young insiders do.
I think that if we get presented the biblical story first, we will be hung up on it. (I know many adults who have this problem.) This has to do with the way human cognition works -- it is different for young children, different for the youth, different for adults (there are many stages of cognitive development).

See, if an adult gets told that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent, and understands these things first, he will be able to devise the main principles of Christianity himself, without knowing much of the biblical story. Adults think primarily abstract, so it may be more productive to approach them that way, instead of confusing them with the concrete biblical story. That comes after.

Thought I would add: Are you doing something presently, that you're worried about?

Yes, indulging in dealing with man's wisdom.

Or perhaps don't want to make any corrections?

I do want to make corrections!

You can talk to him, tell him how you feel about anything! That is where most people fail...they allow the guilt/condemnation keep them from just talking to Hi. Just wanted to throw that all in JUST IN CASE, so consider if food for thought.

Or maybe they don't know whom they are talking to.
I can tell you this: The faith of someone who has been a believer for a long time, preferrably since his childhood, will be expressed differently than the faith of a newcomer. But this doesn't mean that the insider's faith is stronger or purer than the outsider's.

* * *

dhiannian,

I'd say yes to an extent, we should always remember that we are all sinners, and a christian is a sinner saved by grace, not of our own works.
we need to remain humble and thankful to Jesus for paying the ultimate price for our souls.
But we are all sinners, and will always be sinners.
We all sin, the difference is a christian wont live in sin if they are walking with God.
Although we do occasionally fall into sin for periods of time.
We were created with a sin nature. It's normal to sin, But if you are a christian you have the Holy Spirit grieving you of the sins you commit, and the disobedience against your heavenly father.

If I am grieved by the sins I commit, what can you conclude from that?

Radagast · Jul 18, 2005

Galatians 5:16-26:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

-- Radagast

holo · Jul 18, 2005

dhiannian said:
I'd say yes to an extent, we should always remember that we are all sinners, and a christian is a sinner saved by grace, not of our own works.
we need to remain humble and thankful to Jesus for paying the ultimate price for our souls.
But we are all sinners, and will always be sinners.

I disagree. I think it's time we start remembering that we are justified and righteous.

dhiannian said:
We all sin, the difference is a christian wont live in sin if they are walking with God.

I think the difference is really that the beliver is justified and perfect before God. I think to focus on things like "I still sin" is missing the target. It's not truth. Jesus in the truth. He is our righteousness.

Maybe it just looks like a bunch of words, but believe me, it makes a world of difference.

bethdinsmore · Jul 19, 2005

Quote: bethdinsmore, Can you tell me where is sin? Is it between one person and the other, or between a person and God? How is a sinner to behave towards another person? Can a sinner love? Quote

Hope I'm understanding your questions correctly. Sin can be between one person and God, or between two people (but even then God is involved, as we are breaking his laws or guidelines). That is why we always need to confess sin to Him (I John 1:9). But we also need to ask forgiveness of another person when we sin against him/her. We are all sinners (Romans 3:23), but we are also capable of love, or God would not have commanded it.

Radagast · Jul 19, 2005

holo said:
... I think to focus on things like "I still sin" is missing the target. It's not truth. Jesus in the truth. He is our righteousness...

That doesn't justify sinning though:

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeywhether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6)

-- Radagast

ChristianDude777 · Jul 19, 2005

LittleLion said:
Mostly, distressed. And something else I can't tell what it is. But thank you for asking.

Hi Lion,

Well, if you ever need to chat with someone, I, as well as many others here Im sure, would be glad to talk with you.

LittleLion said:
There is a saying about health: Your health is like a glass ball. You can drop it a few times without breaking it. But when it breaks, that's it. -- I think this holds true for spiritual health as well. You can do bad for quite some time, and it is still posible to recover. But from some point on, recovery is impossible.

(It is said somewhere that God gives up on people when there is no chance anymore that they get better.)

I do believe youre correct about this. In the book of Romans we read where God turned people over to a reprobate mind. There are other Scriptures that point to the idea that one can go to far into sin such as 2 Peter 2:20, Hebrews 10:26, etc.

But having said that, its important to remember that God is longsuffering (very patient) with people. He doesnt simply watch for the first time they mess it up. If He did, Id have been a goner a loooong time ago.

He wants people to come to Him and repent when they mess it all up. As long as the heart is being dealt with, Hes still calling

LittleLion said:
I don't believe in magic. This is not to say that prayer is magic. But if I am to say words that I don't understand or say things that I am not attached to, then I am in fact expecting magic. I might as well say abracadabra.

Again, youre right. Meaningless words dont work. It has to come from our heart. Youve been paying attention to whats been posted on here. Well done.

The important thing about prayer is that it doesnt have to be in any special format. We simply talk to Godjust like we talk to others. As we come to know Him more, our prayers will change, as will our attitudes and many other areas of our life. But it all has to have a starting point and as long as it comes from a sincere heart, a simple God, please help me will work. My first prayer to Him was God, what can I do to be saved..? That was it. One small question. And boy, did He ever respond..!!!!

LittleLion said:
But ultimately, it is God who decides whether an action was a sin or not, yes? So the sin exists between the sinner and God.

Yes and no. God is the final judge, of course. But we can know beforehand when something would be sinful or not.

Also, it is possible to sin against another person. Its like, if I stole something from you, I sinned against you. Peter went to Jesus asking about how often he should forgive someone

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

But you're right...sin is always between the person and God, even if it is done to someone else. All of the 10 commandments deatl with two issues. Our relationship with and love for God (commandments 1-4) and our relationships with and love for others (commandments 6-10). It's all based on love...

LittleLion said:
If A gets angry at B and hits him, between A and B is aggression, between A and God is sin.

If B has a bad bacterial infection, and A gives B injections with medicaments, B will be hurt in this, so between A and B exists aggression, but between A and God, there is no sin in this.

The difference is in the motive.

Yes, its all about the intent of the heart. Still, I believe the Scriptures teach us to seek wisdom continually so that we can know beforehand what would be wise to do and say and what wouldnt. Just to make sure were not wrong in what we think might not be harmful.but I realize that wasnt your point.

LittleLion said:
Good question.

I think my problem here is that I have been taught to behave as if I am the sinner, but the other person is not. So I'd even say that a sinner is to refrain form interacting with others.

I don't agree with this, but I am not sure of any other way either.

This is sort of like saying a sick person shouldnt interact with anyone else, even a doctor. For a person whos realized their sinfulness, its always a good thing to interact with people who have already been there and allowed Jesus to begin the healing and salvation process.

I think at this point the focus shouldnt be as much on the fact that one is or isnt a sinner as the fact that theres a remedy for the sin condition..Jesus. As soon as a person has the revelation that Yes, I really am a sinner, they can simply turn to Jesus and Hell be there. Hes the only source that can truly heal the sin issue. He came to heal the broken hearted

Were all designed to interact with others. Its how we were created. Interaction isnt dependent on or even directly related to sin in that sense.

LittleLion said:
Strange. "You are a sinner, you are bad, bad, and you better shut up, go to your corner and never come out again!" hallows in the back of my mind ...

I find the notion that a sinner could love incomprehensible.

Ive heard very similar words from many people who had abusive childhoods. Also from people whos abusive pasts had demonic influences.

Love and sin arent directly connected as we know love to be. Gods love for us (agape in the original language) is a love that surpasses the boundaries of sinfulness. The Bible is clear that while we were yet sinners, He loved us.

Think of sin as a stain. All people are born with a big dark stain on them. The only thing that can wash that stain off is Jesus. If you saw a child who was all stained up, youd still be able to love that child wouldnt you..?

LittleLion said:
I'm not so sure though. I don't really think there is a 'me' without God.

Theres that sinful nature. Thats the me I was referring to. The one that only thinks of itselfthe flesh. Its that me thats separated from God due to sin. Im thinking its not our soul..its our flesh. Its a part of us that our soul recognizes. Although that might not be entirely accurate as I havent really studied that enough to know that for sure.

LittleLion said:
Help. But there is a thought accompanying this. "Have I done this to feel righteous, to feel good about myself? I can't say I really care for that woman whom I carried her bags for. Why then did I do it?"

Well, feeling good about helping someone isnt a bad thing. I like that feeling. Its one of the ways I can personally identify with Jesus. But its not my main motivation. For example, I might not feel that great when its 2:30 am and Im missing sleep because someone needs me right then.

In fact, that might be a good test. Do we still help them even when its not so comfortable..?

Anyone can eventually figure out if they do things for the wrong motives or not. We have to start somewhere and even if we do start out with wrong motives, if were sincere about finding God, Hell help us find the right path.

LittleLion said:
But I don't think it makes sense to say one must help because one genuinely cared for the other person -- sometimes, this is impossible, as there may exist no relationship whatsoever between you and the person you help.

Well.you can still have a love for someone that you dont know. It might not be a familiarity with the person but its still something from the heart thats there.

Whats challenging is loving someone who hates you or has hurt you really badly. Its still possible and were encouraged to do just that but its a challenge at times.

As Christians, we come to rely on Gods love as the source for our love to others. I realize that sounds a bit strange but its true.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Its all a process. Being a Christian isnt about having it all together all at once. We all have a unique experience. We all grow at different rates and in different ways. Its all personal.

God bless you,

Tim L.

holo · Jul 19, 2005

Radagast said:
That doesn't justify sinning though

Of course not. But I remember my driving teacher telling me that if you focus on, say, meeting cars in traffic, you will unconsciously steer toward them. I think the same goes for sin - if you have a problem with porn, for example, it won't help if you think about it (and how to avoid it) all the time.

We choose how we look at things, just like God in his love chooses to look at our righteousness and abilities. Love hopes all and is not concerned with whatever may be faulty.

LittleLion · Jul 19, 2005

holo said:
Of course not. But I remember my driving teacher telling me that if you focus on, say, meeting cars in traffic, you will unconsciously steer toward them. I think the same goes for sin - if you have a problem with porn, for example, it won't help if you think about it (and how to avoid it) all the time.

Exactly. And this is why I think that being told one is a sinner and focusing on sin, one becomes even more of a sinner.

Edial · Jul 19, 2005

LittleLion said:
Exactly. And this is why I think that being told one is a sinner and focusing on sin, one becomes even more of a sinner.

The objective for any unregenerated person is not to avoid sin, but to come to salvation through Jesus Christ through (while) being a sinner.
Only aftrewards one can start "working" on it, not before.

If you start working on it before one is saved, you'll be working on it, and working on it, and working on it and will never, ever resolve it.

If you want salvation (adoption into His family) - go to Christ.

If you want relationship with God outside of Christ - it is very hard.
Actually it is probably impossible. But with Christ, though, your sins will be "covered" and God loves Christ.

So, if you want relationship with God, wouldn't you want to please him?
If you would, do what he likes. And he loves Jesus Christ, so go through him.

If you do not want relationship with God - then think of yourself. You are a "half-man half spirit" (a spiritual being).
And God is called the Father of our Spirits. ...... and on.

.... first of all - do you want relationship with God?
second - if not, what do you want?

Ed

Harlan Norris · Jul 19, 2005

It is written that we are all sinners. Nevertheless, we strive toward perfection. In the morning I pray for guidence. At night I pray for forgiveness. Thats the best I can do I'm afraid.

LittleLion · Jul 19, 2005

Ed,

The objective for any unregenerated person is not to avoid sin, but to come to salvation through Jesus Christ through (while) being a sinner.
Only aftrewards one can start "working" on it, not before.

Well, thank you for saying that, although this comes rather late ...

If you want salvation (adoption into His family) - go to Christ.

If you want relationship with God outside of Christ - it is very hard.
Actually it is probably impossible. But with Christ, though, your sins will be "covered" and God loves Christ.

So, if you want relationship with God, wouldn't you want to please him?
If you would, do what he likes. And he loves Jesus Christ, so go through him.

If you do not want relationship with God - then think of yourself. You are a "half-man half spirit" (a spiritual being).
And God is called the Father of our Spirits. ...... and on.

.... first of all - do you want relationship with God?
second - if not, what do you want?

I don't know what it means to have a relationship with God, so I cannot meaningfully answer your question.

* * *

ChristianDude777,

Well, if you ever need to chat with someone, I, as well as many others here
I'm sure, would be glad to talk with you.

Thank you.

In fact, that might be a good test. Do we still help them even when it's not
so comfortable..?

This is when our motives for helping are put to trial.

Anyone can eventually figure out if they do things for the wrong motives or
not. We have to start somewhere and even if we do start out with wrong
motives, if we're sincere about finding God, He'll help us find the right
path.

Yes, the activity may be the same, but the motives to do it may vary greatly.

How bad is it to be a sinner?

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