How are Prophecies evidence?

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

How is it that you would consider prophecies written by previous writers, and then fulfilled by future writers to be evidence of anything? I'll give you a quick little example as to explain why this doesn't show ANYTHING.

NT Writer: Hmm... so let's see here... I'll have Jesus been a male! OH, and a couple passages in the OT suggest that the Messiah will ride on a donkey, so I'd better put that in.

What would stop the authors of the NT from altering Jesus' life, if he existed, to fit the prophecies. It's not as if the OT and the NT were written in conjunction, after all.

prophecystudent · Apr 7, 2007

You seem to be forgetting that there is actual history involved as well as what is written in the bible.

Prophecies become evidence when they prove to be true. As I heard on the radio yesterday, the 4 gospels in the NT were written by EYE WITNESSES!

They saw and wrote about it. Additionally, a historian named Josephus (well known as I understand it) wrote a lot about things that occurred during Christ's ministry.

Fred

MikeMcK · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
How is it that you would consider prophecies written by previous writers, and then fulfilled by future writers to be evidence of anything? I'll give you a quick little example as to explain why this doesn't show ANYTHING.

NT Writer: Hmm... so let's see here... I'll have Jesus been a male! OH, and a couple passages in the OT suggest that the Messiah will ride on a donkey, so I'd better put that in.

What would stop the authors of the NT from altering Jesus' life, if he existed, to fit the prophecies. It's not as if the OT and the NT were written in conjunction, after all.

Don't you think it's just a little suspicious that different authors, writing independently of one another, seperated by hundreds of years and three different continents all agreed to be a part of the same conspiracy?

How do you explain the secular sources that affirm the Biblical accounts?

MikeMcK · Apr 7, 2007

prophecystudent said:
You seem to be forgetting that there is actual history involved as well as what is written in the bible.

Prophecies become evidence when they prove to be true. As I heard on the radio yesterday, the 4 gospels in the NT were written by EYE WITNESSES!

They saw and wrote about it. Additionally, a historian named Josephus (well known as I understand it) wrote a lot about things that occurred during Christ's ministry.

Fred

Right.

The Bible prophecies the destruction of the temple in ad70.

How did the Bible authors manage to arrange a conquering army to come in and do that?

The Bible prophecies where, where, and how Jesus would die. The Bible authors had no authority over the Romans. How did they arrange this?

The Bible prophecies Jesus' resurrection. Did the Bible authors have that much power over nature to see that Jesus was resurrected just to make their prophecies appear true?

You're absolutely right. These things are a matter of historical record. It's not as though they could just be made up and nobody would notice that the world had changed all of a sudden.

I think the most telling thing is that, if they really did make up the facts, why didn't anybody of that day try to dispute them?

More importantly, why did so many people go so willingly, even joyfully, to such gruesome deaths, all for something they knew to be false?

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

MikeMcK said:
Don't you think it's just a little suspicious that different authors, writing independently of one another, seperated by hundreds of years and three different continents all agreed to be a
part of the same conspiracy?

I apologize, but my naive young brain didn't exactly understand this comment. Could you please rephrase it?

MikeMcK said:
How do you explain the secular sources that affirm the Biblical accounts?

Can you give me a couple examples? I'm sure I know of the examples your talking about, but it'll be good to see the exact sources. Also, please state when these sources were recorded.

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

MikeMcK said:
Right.

The Bible prophecies the destruction of the temple in ad70.

There is proof that: A. The account wasn't written after ad70
B. The account wasn't altered to fit the prophecy?
Please show me this evidence

MikeMcK said:
How did the Bible authors manage to arrange a conquering army to come in and do that?

Please show that the two ideas above at least are rather unlikely.

MikeMcK said:
The Bible prophecies where, where, and how Jesus would die. The Bible authors had no authority over the Romans. How did they arrange this?

Outside the Bible, there is evidence that Jesus died this way? Wouldn't the Romans have made some sort of record?

MikeMcK said:
The Bible prophecies Jesus' resurrection. Did the Bible authors have that much power over nature to see that Jesus was resurrected just to make their prophecies appear true?

Any evidence that Jesus was resurrected?

MikeMcK said:
You're absolutely right. These things are a matter of historical record.

Then please show me evidence that support the "prophecies" you came up with.

MikeMcK said:
It's not as though they could just be made up and nobody would notice that the world had changed all of a sudden.

There is no proof that the Bible is telling the truth that the 2nd and 3rd "prophecies" are fact, and I've came up with alternate explanations for the 1st one. The ball is in your court.

MikeMcK said:
I think the most telling thing is that, if they really did make up the facts, why didn't anybody of that day try to dispute them?

Please, do try to prove this negative. How exactly do you know that NOBODY attempted to dispute it. You weren't there.

MikeMcK said:
More importantly, why did so many people go so willingly, even joyfully, to such gruesome deaths, all for something they knew to be false?

So it was the "founders" of this religion that went to these "gruesome deaths", because if it wasn't, your argument is easily eliminated. If it was, please provide evidence for this.

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

prophecystudent said:
You seem to be forgetting that there is actual history involved as well as what is written in the bible.

Outside of the temple, what exactly is actual history?

prophecystudent said:
Prophecies become evidence when they prove to be true. As I heard on the radio yesterday, the 4 gospels in the NT were written by EYE WITNESSES!

These prophecies were proven true, by sources OTHER than the Bible? Please show this.

In addition, at minimum the virgin birth, temptation of jesus, the empty tomb, ext. could not have been written by the Diciples and be eye-witness accounts. They would be 2nd-hand at best. At any rate, the manipulation factor comes into play. I am of course assuming that the 4 Gospels were written by eye witnesses, which I consider extremely unlikely.

prophecystudent said:
They saw and wrote about it.

They SAW the temptation of Jesus?
They SAW the birth of Jesus?
They SAW the empty tomb?

I'm just coming up with examples from the top of my head, there are plenty more. Let's not forget that this was all written about over 20 years after the death of Jesus.

prophecystudent said:
Additionally, a historian named Josephus (well known as I understand it) wrote a lot about things that occurred during Christ's ministry.

Care to show me passages that are not considered to be interpolations?

prophecystudent said:
Fred

Michael

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

People do not willingly go to their deaths without a strong faith. ...and don't go talking to me about the terrorists. Christians did not seek out death, but when confronted with the choice of either denying Christ or being put to death, they chose death. They chose Christ even if it meant the torture and death of their children. The testimony of the martyrs bears a great deal of evidence towards the validity of Jesus Christ and His fulfilment of the prophecies of the Messiah.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Daniel's prophecies of the great kingdoms were fulfilled, one in his lifetime, two by the day of Christ, and one yet to come. This is historically provable.

Lisa

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
People do not willingly go to their deaths without a strong faith. ...and don't go talking to me about the terrorists. Christians did not seek out death, but when confronted with the choice of either denying Christ or being put to death, they chose death.

For the sake of clarification, these were the followers, no?

Lisa0315 said:
They chose Christ even if it meant the torture and death of their children. The testimony of the martyrs bears a great deal of evidence towards the validity of Jesus Christ and His fulfilment of the prophecies of the Messiah.

Before I continue, please answer the above question, it's important.

Lisa0315 said:
Lisa

Michael

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Daniel's prophecies of the great kingdoms were fulfilled, one in his lifetime, two by the day of Christ, and one yet to come. This is historically provable.

Then please give me evidence to prove it historically.

Lisa0315 said:
Lisa

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
For the sake of clarification, these were the followers, no?

Before I continue, please answer the above question, it's important.

Michael

Yes, Christians, followers, disciples, and all the apostles except for John. It happens to this day. Remember the girl at Columbine? The shooters asked her to deny Christ to save her life. She refused and they killed her. I can give you a link to that if you like.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
Then please give me evidence to prove it historically.

Daniel made the prophecy during the Babylonian empire. Next came the Persian-Medes. Then, the Roman Empire. Next will be the reign of the Anti-Christ.

Lisa

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Yes, Christians, followers, disciples, and all the apostles except for John.

With all due respect, in my opinion just because followers give up their lives, that means nothing. I would also love evidence that proves that the disciples and apostles gave up their lives.

Lisa0315 said:
It happens to this day. Remember the girl at Columbine? The shooters asked her to deny Christ to save her life. She refused and they killed her. I can give you a link to that if you like.

Hmm... no, I believe the Columbine event, however that doesn't mean that Christianity's prophecies are true. If she extremely strongly believed that she would go to Heaven, then she would have done it, no matter the actually truth of Christianity.

Lisa[/quote]

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
With all due respect, in my opinion just because followers give up their lives, that means nothing. I would also love evidence that proves that the disciples and apostles gave up their lives.

Hmm... no, I believe the Columbine event, however that doesn't mean that Christianity's prophecies are true. If she extremely strongly believed that she would go to Heaven, then she would have done it, no matter the actually truth of Christianity.

Lisa

[/quote]

This book was written in the 1500's. It is a compilation of Christian records of those who died for Christ.

Lisa

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
Daniel made the prophecy during the Babylonian empire. Next came the Persian-Medes. Then, the Roman Empire. Next will be the reign of the Anti-Christ.

Lisa

Ok then, let's see here. I'll assume that Daniel's interpretation of the dream is the prophecy. However, if I may comment, this prophecy is rather vague. An empire will rise, inferior to yours? Daniel doesn't even explain how exactly it will be inferior. "Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth." I'll assume that you think that this means the Roman Empire? I would like to know how this specifically refers to the Roman Empire to begin with. "Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as ironfor iron breaks and smashes everythingand as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others." I see nothing that proves that this is the reign of the Anti-Christ. It destroys all the others... with all due respect, this appears to be a load of interpretation. I bet you that I could twist this to mean pretty much anything.

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
With all due respect, in my opinion just because followers give up their lives, that means nothing. I would also love evidence that proves that the disciples and apostles gave up their lives.

Hmm... no, I believe the Columbine event, however that doesn't mean that Christianity's prophecies are true. If she extremely strongly believed that she would go to Heaven, then she would have done it, no matter the actually truth of Christianity.

Lisa

[/quote]

Not true. It goes against every survival instinct in the human body.

Lisa

Lisa0315 · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
Ok then, let's see here. I'll assume that Daniel's interpretation of the dream is the prophecy. However, if I may comment, this prophecy is rather vague. An empire will rise, inferior to yours? Daniel doesn't even explain how exactly it will be inferior. "Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth." I'll assume that you think that this means the Roman Empire? I would like to know how this specifically refers to the Roman Empire to begin with. "Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as ironfor iron breaks and smashes everythingand as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others." I see nothing that proves that this is the reign of the Anti-Christ. It destroys all the others... with all due respect, this appears to be a load of interpretation. I bet you that I could twist this to mean pretty much anything.

As I said to another awhile back...You likely could find greater empires or other empires that would fit these prophecies...easily. What is difficult though is that each of them is related to the captivity and/or occupation of Israel.

Lisa

Wiliki · Apr 7, 2007

Hmm... ok then. I'm going into the second chapter, and I see no real evidence to back up the author's claims. Since obviously he is rather biased, I'd really love some sort of record that I can see, which backs up the Disciples being Martyrs. In addition, I was hoping, you know, for something during the time that the disciples lived, considering that really, I can't see this being much more than hearsay.

MikeMcK · Apr 7, 2007

Wiliki said:
There is proof that: A. The account wasn't written after ad70
B. The account wasn't altered to fit the prophecy?
Please show me this evidence

Please show that the two ideas above at least are rather unlikely.

Outside the Bible, there is evidence that Jesus died this way? Wouldn't the Romans have made some sort of record?

Any evidence that Jesus was resurrected?

Then please show me evidence that support the "prophecies" you came up with.

There is no proof that the Bible is telling the truth that the 2nd and 3rd "prophecies" are fact, and I've came up with alternate explanations for the 1st one. The ball is in your court.

Please, do try to prove this negative. How exactly do you know that NOBODY attempted to dispute it. You weren't there.

So it was the "founders" of this religion that went to these "gruesome deaths", because if it wasn't, your argument is easily eliminated. If it was, please provide evidence for this.

You seem to be awfully agressive about this.

Before I go any further, are you interested in having a conversation or are you just going to scream "proof! proof!"?

You do know that this is a forum for asking questions, not debating, right?

How are Prophecies evidence?

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