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Hope Among the Doubt

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by JesusServant, Feb 24, 2003.

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  1. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I know this has probably been done to death, but I like to do things that have been done to death again :)

    Seriously, I don't want to debate or argue really.  I know that all Scriptures have to be taken into account with other Scriptures.  But the more I come to know my Father, the more I cannot fathom Him allowing a soul to suffer the torments of Hell.  However, I know that if I try to make God out to be a big cuddly teddybear I am not properly depicting God.  But what if God's perfect plan is that of redemption for the whole world and every single human soul?


    <HR>


    What if every man that has been wronged by another man is asked to forgive him on the day of judgment?

    (1Co 6:1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (1Co 6:2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1Co 6:3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life? (1Co 6:4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (1Co 6:5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

    I realize the context is Paul addressing believers taking each other to court (before non-believers) instead of settling matters amongst God's children.&nbsp; However, he makes a couple of eye-opening statements.&nbsp; We know that God is judge of the world, however, what if God, on Judgment Day asked each person to forgive those who have wronged them to the extent that no one had anything against anyone?&nbsp; God would already know what each of His children would do and that is most definitely forgive.&nbsp; And if God teaches us to forgive all, then wouldn't He have to do the same or at least set up a way in His perfect plan so that all may be forgiven?


    <HR>


    We all know this very famous and beloved Scripture, but how many really believe every word it says?&nbsp; How many people don't agree with every word of this Scripture?&nbsp; How can we not have hope in it?

    (Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    What's worse is to not accept every word in the next Scripture isn't it?

    (Joh 3:17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The world through Him might be saved, Glory to God!


    <HR>


    I don't know about you all.&nbsp; But every time people try to steal my joy and rob me of my hope in Christ I refer to this Scripture...

    (Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    (Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    <HR>


    Just thought I'd post a thread of hope with so many threads that do not bring any.&nbsp; God bless!
     
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  2. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    &nbsp;:wave: JesusServant!

    My hubby believe that everyone will be saved--at various stages.

    I don't know.&nbsp; I do pray that it is so!

    There seems to be so much in the Bible that says it isn't so, but we can always hope.

    I certainly wouldn't want anyone to bet their eternal life on it.
    :)
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    :wave: Terri!

    I dare not say what God's complete plan is as the entire plan hasn't been revealed to us in its entirety. It's fun to speculate and dream, and I wouldn't put anything past our God. Sounds like your husband has love and hope for the lost world as well :)

    BTW, it sure is good to be a member of the one true Church is it not? ;)
     
  4. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    JesusServant my biggest problems with my husband is getting him off the computer so I can get on! :)

    He is always talking on his Christian forum (not this one) and&nbsp;studying the Bible on the computer.

    I think we need two computers!! ;)

    He is really convinced that everyone will be saved.&nbsp; I hope he is right!!
     
  5. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

    +76
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    Here's a question for the question;

    If everyone is going to be saved anyway (get a second chance), then why do we need to spread the Good News?&nbsp; What's the point if everyone will be able to "choose life" on the day of Judgement?&nbsp;

    Furthermore ~ if I'm going to get another opportunity to ask for forgiveness at the day of Judgement, then I should be able to do whatever I want because I know God will forgive me when I get that second chance, right?

    {please note, that this post isn't finger-pointing at all.&nbsp; Purely for discussion purposes only :))

    Much love,

    BF
     
  6. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    &nbsp;:clap: :clap: :clap:
     
  7. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    My post is kind of a what if, not what I believe FTR.&nbsp; :)

    Even if this hypothesis were true, then if you truly believed that God had made his plan to redeem all of humanity then you would not do anything you wanted just for kicks.&nbsp; You would appreciate the gift and live life to the fullest.&nbsp; He's made it this easy already, yet people just can't accept it.&nbsp; I know how hard it is to accept myself and if it wasn't for God I'd still be lost like most people.&nbsp; I know what Scripture teaches, but I also have read Scripture that says there are things that are not and won't be revealed to us now that God has planned for His children.&nbsp; Cool huh? :)
     
  8. Athlon4all

    Athlon4all I'm offline indefintely

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    I would encourage you not to do that. If it's in the Bible then it's of God. Unless you have scriptural backing for what you believe in or hope for, then it is unwarranted.

    Now, God is a Holy God. He cannot the unrighteous to enter the kingdom(Galatians 5:19-rest of chapter). We can only enter the kingdom because Christ's righteousness has been imputed unto us (Romans 4). God also I think does not want to force himself onto us. If we simply repeatedly reject Him, He is going to do all He can to encourage us to follow Him and enter a wonderful relationship with Him, but if we refuse, He will not force us to. In sending the lost who have rejected Christ to Hell, He is not only judging them for their sins, He is also giving them exactly what they want. Sure the LORD knows that He has soooo much better for them, but He isn't going to make a robot out of them. The lost being punished to hell forever fits perfectly find my picture of the Lord.
     
  9. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

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    I am not at all sure if I believe in the Christian hell. I instead think that it takes an action by God to allow our souls to posses eternal life. The souls that do not posses this life will end.

    But, I do think that there is a place of eternal fire where the evil will reap their punishment. It is for Satan, his angels, and ??? I do not think we can make snap judgments on who will go to Hell. I think that Judgment belongs to the Creator.

    I also do not believe that the lot of us believers will see heaven. I think our hope lies in the new Earth.
     
  10. Blindfaith

    Blindfaith God's Tornado

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    If there isn't an eternal Hell for unbelievers, (those who wanted to be separated from God on Earth and He's simply honoring that decision), then why did Jesus talk more of hell in the Gospels than Heaven?&nbsp; Why did He describe it as a gnashing of teeth?
     
  11. Stormy

    Stormy Senior Contributor

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    I think that the fires of hell are eternal... not the souls who are condemned.

    As Jesus said... God will destroy their souls...they will not inherit eternal life.

    Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    I do not think there is anywhere in the Bible where God says that he is going to give anyone eternal life for the sole purpose of his torture.

    I also do not think that we can easily classify all unbelievers as those who will be condemned to hell.
     
  12. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    (Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    (Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    This is the only Scripture I can find for eternal torment in the lake of fire. But notice it only says those who worship the beast, his image and whosoever receives the mark. Other than this, can anyone find in Scripture other than Revelation that undoubtedly proves that human souls will burn in hell forever? This is all I have, and I'd love to be shown my error with more Scripture, but this is all I've found.
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    There was a poster here some time ago who came a preaching that everyone wld be saved in the end. And that hell wasnt really hell and that eternal burning in hell wasnt eternal but wld only last for a period of time. I found his theology really off, so did others.

    It's true that God loves all and doesnt want any to perish. But the other truth is that not everyone loves God and wants to go to heaven. And God doesnt force his love on us. Otherwise, he might as well just have created robots.

    have you seen this one?

    Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    what abt the fact that people who have experienced near death experiences have reported been to hell and back, and when they were there, they already saw people burning inside there. An eg of this is a testimony of a Pastor who was raised from the dead (video by Reinhardt Bonke Ministries).

    anyway, there are so many sciptures in the Bible that talk about hell eg the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was already in hell and the Bible records it.
     
  14. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Considering the Bible tells us God has plans that we couldn't even fathom I don't set anything of the next world in stone.&nbsp; I have seen the Scripture you posted andrew, but if you or anyone else in this world can say that they don't fit on that list somewhere I sure would love to meet them and keep a close eye on everything they do, because I'd bet they were lying.&nbsp; There isn't a person on earth that hasn't lied at some point.&nbsp; Anyways, God has to keep His promises and I've found a site that lists a lot of promises that I think everyone should take into consideration when reading about hell or God torturing souls He created.&nbsp; Can you explain how all of these are not true?

    1 Timothy 2:4 God will have <B>all</B> to be saved

    1 Timothy 2:6 Salvation of <B>all</B> is testified in due time

    Ephesians 1:11 God works <B>all</B> after the counsel of His will

    John 12:47 Jesus came to save <B>all</B>

    John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the <B>world</B>

    1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the <B>world</B>

    John 12:32 Jesus draws <B>all</B> to Himself

    Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost

    Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of <B>all</B> creation

    Colossians 1:16 By Him <B>all</B> things were created

    Romans 5:15-21 In Adam <B>all</B> condemned, in Christ <B>all</B> live

    1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam <B>all</B> die, in Christ <B>all</B> live

    Ephesians 1:10 <B>All</B> come into Him at the fullness of times

    1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed

    Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord

    1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit

    Romans 11:26 <B>All</B> Israel will be saved

    Acts 3:20-21 Restitution of <B>all</B>

    Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to <B>all</B> people

    Ephesians 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come

    Hebrews 8:11-12 <B>All</B> will know God

    Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to <B>all</B>

    Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty

    Colossians 1:20 <B>All</B> reconciled unto God

    1 Corinthians 4:5 <B>All</B> will have praise of God

    James 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy

    Revelation 15:4 <B>All</B> nations worship when judgments are seen

    II Corinthians 5:17 New creation in Christ

    Romans 11:32 <B>All</B> subject to unbelief, mercy on <B>all</B>

    Romans 11:36 <B>All</B> out of God, through Him, and into Him

    Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill <B>all</B> things

    Revelation 5:13 <B>All</B> creation seen praising God

    1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be <B>all</B> in <B>all</B>

    Revelation 21:4-5 No more tears, <B>all</B> things made new

    John 5:25 <B>All</B> dead who hear will live

    John 5:28 <B>All</B> in the grave will hear and come forth

    Mark 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire

    Romans 11:15 Reconciliation of the world

    II Corinthians 5:15 Jesus died for <B>all</B>

    John 8:29 He always does what pleases His Father

    Hebrews 1:2 He is heir of <B>all</B> things

    John 3:35 <B>All</B> has been given into His hand

    John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to <B>all</B> whom His Father gives to Him

    John 13:3 The Father gave Him <B>all</B> things

    I Timothy 4:9-11 Jesus is the Savior of <B>all</B>

    Isaiah 46:10 God will do <B>all</B> His pleasure

    Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth

    Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps

    Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands

    Psalms 33:15 God fashions <B>all</B> hearts

    Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive

    Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"

    Lamentations 3:31,32 <B>God will not cast off forever</B>

    Isaiah 2:2 <B>All</B> nations shall flow to the Lord's house

    Genesis 18:18 <B>All</B> families of earth will be blessed

    Isaiah 45:23 <B>All</B> descendants of Israel justified

    Psalms 138:4 <B>All</B> kings will praise God

    Psalms 72:18 God only does wondrous things

    Psalms 86:9 <B>All</B> nations will worship God

    Psalms 65:2-4 <B>All</B> flesh will come to God

    Psalms 66:3-4 Enemies will submit to God

    Isaiah 19:14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored

    Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored

    Psalms 22:25-29 <B>All</B> will turn to the Lord and <B>all</B> families will worship before Him

    Psalms 145:9-10 He is good to <B>all</B> and merciful to <B>all</B> His work

    Psalms 145:14 God raises <B>all</B> who fall

    Psalms 145:16 God satisfied the desire of the living

    Isaiah 25:6 Lord makes feast for <B>all</B> people

    Isaiah 25:7 Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations

    Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory

    Jeremiah 32:35 Never entered His mind to burn people in fire

    Psalms 135:6 <B>God does what pleases Him</B>

    I firmly believe in following a simple rule when studying Scripture.&nbsp; When the Bible says this or that, always find out what it also says.&nbsp; God has made promises in the list I've provided that will come to pass.&nbsp; God will not go back on a promise.&nbsp; So I have a hard time believing that He, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge doesn't have a plan beyond our comprehension.&nbsp;

    Andrew, I know it is overwhelming to answer all the Scripture provided.&nbsp; So I ask you or anyone to answer this one simple question if you don't want to take on the Scriptures I posted...

    If God wants us to love Him, not because we're like robots, but because we really love Him, then why would He ever threaten us with Hell as the alternative?
     
  15. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    JS,

    I would say that there are terms in the Bible that are taken out of context so often that many blindly stumble through Scripture seeking to conform the Word of God to their preconceived notions.&nbsp; The word "all" is proably the most often misinterpreted.&nbsp; "All" in the Bible quite often means something other than "every single person that ever lived."

    God bless,

    Don

    &nbsp;
     
  16. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I dunno Ref, I'm having a hard time right now with churches scaring people into submitting to God. If God wanted us to worship in fear then the entire Bible doesn't make sense to me. He has given us a free will for a reason, but if our alternative is torment then what kind of a choice would that be? I dunno, just having a hard time with the whole hell thing right now and can't get good answers for it. I'll be seeking God on this one but I'm looking for help from you guys as well, since we're all family :)
     
  17. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Well "fear of the Lord" isn't necessarily a bad thing.&nbsp; We should fear Him.&nbsp; And that doesn't just mean "reverence."&nbsp; Fear, however, shouldn't be&nbsp;the only thing we feel about Him but I think a little healthy fear is a good thing.&nbsp; Think back to when you were a kid.&nbsp; I'm sure you loved your parents, but when you did something wrong weren't you a little afraid?&nbsp; I think that fear is sometimes the thing that keeps us in line. ;)

    Just for the record, truly "submitting" to God is a result of God's grace, not a church's scare tactics.&nbsp; One can outwardly conform to Christian standards but it is our motivation that makes something sinful or not.

    God bless
     
  18. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I agree, but it doesn't make it right that churches do it. Some of them, IMHO, scare people into joining the church without teaching people the full spectrum of what God is all about. I try not to focus on Hell, because I love God because of who He is, what He's done and what He's going to do, not because the alternative is hellfire.

    Some of our 'submitting' to God has to be our choice or we wouldn't have free will at all....
    That's another area I'm studying and praying on right now. If I (and I have) totally submit to God's will for my life and give up my free will for His perfect will for my life, then if He doesn't or seemingly doesn't take over our will with His own, then is it His responsibility if we fail to comply?
     
  19. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Ahhh...free will.&nbsp; Well, I'm sure this will spark controversy, but as a result of many hours spent in personal study, I don't subscribe to the belief of "free will."&nbsp; "Free" means "not influenced by anything outside itself" and I don't think that describes any decision we might make.

    God bless
     
  20. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    check the other thread :)
     
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