Honest Question

[ShirChadash]

For a full-treatment of the "Law" issue, begin here:
http://www.yashanet.com/library/under1.htm



this page is specifically useful as well:
http://www.yashanet.com/library/under9.htm



another excellent article (don't let the title fool ya ) :
http://www.thewatchman.net/reasons.html


These articles are more than worth the read, IMHO.

 

[sojeru]

im watching.......<img>

 

[ShirChadash]

Sojeru! You confooozle me! LOL Wattchu tawkin 'bout, Achi??

 

[sojeru]

zemirah, could you please free up some space in your PM folder so that I can send you a PM?
thank you

 

[JM]

Just wanted to thank everyone for offering help, God bless.

 

[ShirChadash]

zemirah, could you please free up some space in your PM folder so that I can send you a PM?
thank you

Done did it ! Sorry about that -- there's room now!

 

[BT]

What it means is you are still supposed to observe a sabbath of rest. And virtually no Christian does this on Saturday or on Sunday or really any other day of the week.

If you ask my wife you might get a different answer.

 

[P_G]

If you ask my wife you might get a different answer.

I tend to stick to scripture for my spirtual advice


PG

 

[BT]

Ack! You missed the point.

And virtually no Christian does this on Saturday or on Sunday or really any other day of the week.

If you asked my wife, she would say that this ^ is not true.

ba-boom-ching (rimshot)

 

[Henaynei]

Ack! You missed the point.


If you asked my wife, she would say that this ^ is not true.

ba-boom-ching (rimshot)

In what way - as PG said
"virtually no" - i.e. there are a few..... albiet very few

 

[Ruhama]

So basically the consensus is: all peoples, Jew or Gentile, will be required to follow the full Law in the future but in the current time only Jews are required to?

 

[ShirChadash]

Well, speaking strictly for myself and my family, Ruhama, we do believe gentiles are required to follow Torah now (not for salvation, but as the walk of faith in Yeshua)... Torah teaching is the only walk of faith that G-d, through Yeshua His Word, handed down for all believers to follow (though I realize some things simply cannot be followed at the moment... but in Histiming and Will... ) and hence we do not accept the concept of "Noahide" Laws, etc., or a separate walk for Jews and Gentiles.

As an aside... I have been wondering a lot lately about why Jews tend to feel that gentiles taking on Judaism and Biblical faith/walk are "stealing" from the Jews... because my question is: clearly all throughout the existence of Israel, there have always been sojourners, G-d fearers, gentiles who took on the yoke of at least some of Torah without full conversion... and we see many instances of this behavior by gentiles being allowed for in G-d's instructions, but also it's clear that gents were allowed in synagogue to learn, involved in prayer and the celebrations of shabbats and feasts... etc. Where and when did the attitude against gents learning Torah, and walking the orderly walk of Torah, as much as they were able... rise up? Just been curious...

Shalom

 

[Ruhama]

I think the past 2000 years of Christianity's attempts to "supplant" Judaism as the true faith have been characterized by attempted theft of many traditions and this is seen as just another manifestation of that rather than of humble learning and following of something better. The attitude is part of the issue - if it didn't appear as something done out of feelings of superiority over a blind group of people I think it would be met with a lot less indignation.

Though on the other hand it is also something that was fought for and still is fought to defend and as such it accrues a sense of ownership. Even if theologically speaking, if you are right, it is meant for all peoples.

And then of course there's the matter of "doing it properly." If you're going to do some of the Torah stuff you should jolly well do it right if you're halfway respectful - and to most people (whatever religion) I think that means "the way I understand to be right."

 

[Ruhama]

Hm, just noticed this post of JewishHeart's, thought it worthy of copying here:

"two house theology was created because of pride... gentile christians/messianics don't know how to be ruth's and simply identify while at the same time recognizing their call as a gentile, rather they try to usurp the calling of the Jewish people.

they don't know that while we have different calls, the judgement is the same... i would hate to be judged for not performing my call while trying usurp another one's call

the jewish people are called to be priests to the nations...something the gentile christians/messianics will never usurp. ( coming from a messianic gentile)"

 

[sojeru]

Greetings your Excellency Zemirah,

The noachide laws, were never meant to be the end for a gentile...
it was MEANT to be a beginning...
however at Yavne, they made it an End while Rabbi Eliezar showed otherwise.

so, the concept, as you say of Noachide laws is Judaism.
However, I can see why and how you would disagree for it to be an end of Torah for the Gentile.
So i applaud you for going beyond the Noachide laws.
However, these laws were also a beginning for many Gentiles who later converted.

Thus as Hakham Ya'aqov ha'tsaddik had said:
let them (the gentiles) do these and not burdened with the entire Torah, but they will go to Shabbat services each week and learn the words of Torah in order that they grow and become converted and thus recieve and do the entire torah.

hope this helps

shalom u'brachot

 

[ShirChadash]

Whoops -- I should have worded what I said better up there -- I agree entirely with what you wrote, Sojeru...

The noachide laws, were never meant to be the end for a gentile...
it was MEANT to be a beginning...
however at Yavne, they made it an End while Rabbi Eliezar showed otherwise.

so, the concept, as you say of Noachide laws is Judaism.
However, I can see why and how you would disagree for it to be an end of Torah for the Gentile.

That's actually what I meant to say, more specifically -- I do agree and realize the Noachide Laws (or the foundation anyway) were in practice and supported by the Acts 15 council, for this purpose, as you stated:

However, these laws were also a beginning for many Gentiles who later converted.


Thus as Hakham Ya'aqov ha'tsaddik had said:
let them (the gentiles) do these and not burdened with the entire Torah, but they will go to Shabbat services each week and learn the words of Torah in order that they grow and become converted and thus recieve and do the entire torah.

Omen!

Shalom. Achi!

 

[visionary]

Greetings your Excellency Zemirah,

The noachide laws, were never meant to be the end for a gentile...
it was MEANT to be a beginning...
however at Yavne, they made it an End while Rabbi Eliezar showed otherwise.

so, the concept, as you say of Noachide laws is Judaism.
However, I can see why and how you would disagree for it to be an end of Torah for the Gentile.
So i applaud you for going beyond the Noachide laws.
However, these laws were also a beginning for many Gentiles who later converted.

Thus as Hakham Ya'aqov ha'tsaddik had said:
let them (the gentiles) do these and not burdened with the entire Torah, but they will go to Shabbat services each week and learn the words of Torah in order that they grow and become converted and thus recieve and do the entire torah.

hope this helps

Shalom u'brachot

So it will be that in the kingdom come, the learned ones will be the priests and teachers of Torah to the saved by faith.