Homosexuals

[cheese007]

Back in the days the Disciples walked the earth, Christians were not referred to as Christians of themselves, it was others who defined them as such and it was because of their witness and testimony and was really meant as an insult by those who didn't like what Christians had to say or the moral values they held to as they sought to emulate Christ, being both pleasing to the Father and therefore the Son. Things sure have changed since then.

I'm assuming this is in response to my post, correct? If so, what relevance does it have to what I said?

 

[IamRedeemed]

The relevance is that we are not Christians by claiming the title. I don't know you from Adam, so my comments are in no way reflective of whether you are or are not a Christian, your post just made me think of this irony and so I shared it.

If we are accused of being a Christian, praise God and may there be enough evidence to convict us.
I just think too much emphasis is placed on the title and our right to it, when as I noted, historically it was not a name that Christians claimed for themselves, it was a name they were called by those who hated them. I was just noting how it has changed since then and the irony of it, that's all.

I'm assuming this is in response to my post, correct? If so, what relevance does it have to what I said?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Texas Lynn,

There is diversity among Methodists; some are fundamentalists and some are not.

So Methodists who believe the Bible are fundamentalists and Methodist who don’t believe the Bible are not fundamentalists. Can you show me some evidence of these two groups?

Bible verses can still "mean a lot" without being taken literally and they were never intended to be viewed in that manner.

Well I agree but if Bible verses don’t mean anything it wont matter whether they are literal or not.

Besides those of you who claim to take scripture literally are highly selective in doing it.

Who takes scripture literally, I don’t, I do however literally take scripture and then interpret it.
You seem very keen on guessing what you think others do.

 

[Texas Lynn]

So Methodists who believe the Bible are fundamentalists and Methodist who don’t believe the Bible are not fundamentalists. Can you show me some evidence of these two groups?

I wouldn't say fundamentalists necessary "believe the Bible" and others don't. It is a shorthand and limited as such. You don't find for instance too many outside the extreme circle who claim Genesis 1 and 2 mean evolution isn't possible.

I don't know what you mean by showing "evidence of these two groups". Pretty much anything you'll see on the status of religion says a lot. We know the factions exist. Perhaps you need something like James Davison Hunter's book Culture Wars. Hunter is conservative and does a good job defining the factions of modern internecine church struggles as well as in politics.

 

[cheese007]

So Methodists who believe the Bible are fundamentalists and Methodist who don’t believe the Bible are not fundamentalists. Can you show me some evidence of these two groups?

Assumptions are fun, aren't they?

 

[bmoynihan]

HOMOSEXUAL
James 1:13-16
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Gal 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Gal 5:19
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1 Pet 2:19
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1 Pet 2:21-22
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth";
James 4:5
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
James 4:7-8
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Tim 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Luke 17:28-30
28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
2 Pet 2:3
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
xxxxThis is a revelation I received from the Holy Spirit. Like it or not this is what the bible says. You can look up every verse. Whether your a homosexual or not if you approve of it you could condemn yourself.

Rom 14:22
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
(NKJ)
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(NKJ)

Firstly, BrotherBrown!! Not a very good name for somebody who is anti-gay!!

Secondly, as an outsider and an ex-christian, is it just me or is there only actually one reference to homosexulity in that post? And from what I read the interpretation of the word is up for discussion anyway!

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Texas Lynn,

I posted Bible verses and you replied that ‘quoting Bible verses at people hasn't worked before’
I therefore wondered how Methodistis like yourself treated the Bible and whether the Bible verse meant anything. As I said this is a Christian section and Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.

You then said

There is diversity among Methodists; some are fundamentalists and some are not.

So I assumed the fundamentalists were the ones to whom the Bible verses would mean something. Was I correct in my assumption or is it the non-fundamentalist Methodists to whom the Bible verses would mean something?

So Methodists who believe the Bible are fundamentalists and Methodist who don’t believe the Bible are not fundamentalists. Can you show me some evidence of these two groups?

I wouldn't say fundamentalists necessary "believe the Bible" and others don't.

So what is the relevance of your comment about diversity in Methodism and saying some are fundamentalists and some not in response to whether Bible verses mean anything to them?

I don't know what you mean by showing "evidence of these two groups".

WelI don’t think there are two groups, you are the one who suggested there were fundamentalists and some are not. I don’t see that as I see for Methodists of Great Britain Bible verses do mean something..
We seek to discover the word of God through reading the Bible.
So whats all this you say about fundamentalists?

Use of these to condemn your LGBT brothers and sisters is to misuse them because the original text reflected that culture and its limitations.

Sorry but as I have already explained to you on other threads I don’t have any LBGT brothers and sisters, nor do I condemn anyone, I merely recognise God’s condemnations of same-sex sex, which is why I asked about the meaning of Bible verses.

Fundamentalism by and large is an error generally.

What do you see as fundamentalism?

The Bible is not the fourth member of the Trinity.

According to the Bible you are correct.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear cheese07

1. I'm not a fundie

What do you mean by ‘fundie’ and why would I be interested to know?

2. I'm not a literalist either.

Nor am I, I take what the Bible literally says in context.

3. I'm insulted by the fact that you're implying that I'm not Christian because I don't believe exactly like you.

I haven’t implied anyone isnt a Christian, from what I have said you must have implied you aren’t.
I am not interested in judging anyone, only what the word of God says according to the Holy Spirit’s lead.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I posted Bible verses and you replied that ‘quoting Bible verses at people hasn't worked before’ I therefore wondered how Methodistis like yourself treated the Bible and whether the Bible verse meant anything. As I said this is a Christian section and Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.

You're trying to make a layer cake out of a marble cake. It won't work. You're just stating one overgeneralization after another.

I assumed the fundamentalists were the ones to whom the Bible verses would mean something. Was I correct in my assumption or is it the non-fundamentalist Methodists to whom the Bible verses would mean something?

There's a difference between something "meaning something" and taking it literally. Even to some who totally reject a concept it can still "mean something".

So what is the relevance of your comment about diversity in Methodism and saying some are fundamentalists and some not in response to whether Bible verses mean anything to them?

Fundamentalists make strong note of the idea they take the Bible literally or at least parts of it. Others don't.

for Methodists of Great Britain Bible verses do mean something..

As they do for American Mainliners, just, generally, different things.

I don’t have any LBGT brothers and sisters

Perhaps you then are unfamiliar with the parable of the "Good Samaritan".

I merely recognise God’s condemnations of same-sex sex

No, you interpret scripture, written by patriarchs, as having validity in that instance.

 

[Stinker]

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (1Cor.6:9)

Firstly, BrotherBrown!! Not a very good name for somebody who is anti-gay!!

Secondly, as an outsider and an ex-christian, is it just me or is there only actually one reference to homosexulity in that post? And from what I read the interpretation of the word is up for discussion anyway!

Actually there are 3 words that fundamentalist refuse to study accurately in (1Cor.6:9) They think they know what fornication means (they don't). They think they know what the Apostle Paul's new coined Koine Greek word Arsenokoites means (they don't). They think they know what the Koine Greek word Malakos means (they don't).

 

[Hentenza]

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (1Cor.6:9)




Actually there are 3 words that fundamentalist refuse to study accurately in (1Cor.6:9) They think they know what fornication means (they don't). They think they know what the Apostle Paul's new coined Koine Greek word Arsenokoites means (they don't). They think they know what the Koine Greek word Malakos means (they don't).

Your post presupposes that you know what these words mean. I guess you have the only understanding of what these words do mean.

 

[KCKID]

Your post presupposes that you know what these words mean. I guess you have the only understanding of what these words do mean.

Whether he does know what they mean or not I think it's fairly obvious by now that words have varying definitions to the various people who hear/read them. This is especially true when it comes to ancient texts such as contained in the Bible. Nothing is really that definitive when it comes down to human perception and understanding. You see one thing, I see another, someone else sees something else. You may be right/wrong. I may be right/wrong. Someone else might be right/wrong. The thing is, generally speaking, EACH person believes that they alone are right. Furthermore, generally speaking again, few want to be told by someone else that they are wrong. This can lead one to 'dig in their heels' even more EVEN when they KNOW that they are wrong!

 

[artybloke]

Your post presupposes that you know what these words mean. I guess you have the only understanding of what these words do mean.

Not neccessarily. It's perfectly possible to be at a loss as to what they mean yourself, and find the idea that someone else thinks they know what they mean laughable.

The ability to say, "I don't know what it means, but I think it might mean..." seems beyond the fundamentalist mindset...

 

[Phinehas2]

I think its fairly bizarre that if some propose that English words and sentances in the Bible are difficult to understand, they are somehow easily understandable when written in a post...which is laughable.
I believe the idea that the meaning is unclear is because some dont want to accept what the Bible says and means.
As to arsenokoites, we know that porneia and mocheai breaks God's creation purpose of a faithful man woman union, Matt 19, Mark 10, Gen 2, so arsenokoites must be some other specific sexual error, and with arsen being man/male and koites being bed fam. its difficult to see how it cant mean anything else but homosexual offenders. especially as arsen and koites are in the Greek Spetuagint Lev 18 and 20 and that the law is referred to in 1 Tim 1.

 

[artybloke]

I think its fairly bizarre that if some propose that English words and sentances in the Bible are difficult to understand,

Because of course, the Bible was written in English wasn't it? Twentieth century English at that...

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear artybloke

Because of course, the Bible was written in English wasn't it? Twentieth century English at that...

Of course it wasn’t and the Bible texts that have been cited and quoted are in English… and not all 20th century either. And the all say the same thing, that sodomites, homosexual offenders men abusers of men are in error.
And that’s irrelevant to what I said which stands regardless I think its fairly bizarre that if some propose that English words and sentances in the Bible are difficult to understand,

 

[IamRedeemed]

Christians are charged by the Lord to hate all sin.
Hating sin, because it separates mankind from God.
Sin is the enemy of the souls of men.
Jesus is that bridge that reconciles us to the Father
by freeing us from that sin and removing the blots on our garments,
with His righteous shed blood.
Accepting or condoning sin might make a person more palatable
to people who are of the world, but will cause the Lord to
spew us from His mouth.

We are not of the world, we are called OUT of the world.
The world does not receive us because we are not theirs, we
are inhabitants of the Kingdom. Those who hate us, hate the righteousness of
God, as is evidenced by their hearts, the abundance of which flows out of their mouths.

Firstly, BrotherBrown!! Not a very good name for somebody who is anti-gay!!

Secondly, as an outsider and an ex-christian, is it just me or is there only actually one reference to homosexulity in that post? And from what I read the interpretation of the word is up for discussion anyway!

 

[IamRedeemed]

Believers have the advantage of the Holy Spirit who leads
and guides us into all truth. Unbelievers do not have spirits
that are alive to God for one, and therefore they do not have
the benefit of the Holy Spirit working within them either, so
they are at a double disadvantage when it comes to understanding
the fullness of the Word of God, but you know what?

Truly, I do not think it is a problem with the parts that people
don't understand that troubles them.

Not neccessarily. It's perfectly possible to be at a loss as to what they mean yourself, and find the idea that someone else thinks they know what they mean laughable.

The ability to say, "I don't know what it means, but I think it might mean..." seems beyond the fundamentalist mindset...