Homosexuality

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

My church spilt on this matter about 3 years ago. We broke from about a 15 year contract with the national denomination of "Disciples of Christ". Many members do not know that it's creed/constitution now endorses homosexuality & no longer considers it a sin.
Our church spilt over this, some of the congregation left along with the pastor. We are now totally independant with a new pastor & no longer associated in any way with the "Disciples of Christ" denomination. Sorry if this offends anyone, but the Bible is my final authority, & FYI I have friends whom I love that are active homosexuals.

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

Ted Bundy was a serial killer. He claimed he struggled with his overwhelming desire to murder & rape. If you had a known murderer in your church who continued to murder & rape, how long would you allow him in your church if he told you he was not repenting?
What kind of church would your church be if they never asked him to leave? (hypocritical).
I thought all sins were the same. Why not put the murderer, rapist, or active homosexual in charge of your youth group? Let them go on trips.
It's the local community who sees us as hypocrites, when we allow known active, unrepented members to be adulterers, murderers, homosexuals, rapists.

Christi · Apr 1, 2002

I know Christ changes lives. He can change people. I know this. It's not his judgement that changes people, but his love. We are his body, now. His love is shown through us. I know when he walked among us, he didn't really hang out with the religious folks. He hung out with and loved the sinners, he chose them to be disciples. He ate, drank, and went to parties. He changed tax collectors. He's changing me. I am reading the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14) every day. The reason I am reading this everyday is because on of the sins I have struggled with is being judgemental and self-righteous. This story helps me. I don't think it will be productive for me to debate this any longer, Debbie, but I will keep you in my prayers.

Catchup · Apr 1, 2002

I knew this young family that belonged to a Baptist Church. They had regular attendance. They would show up every Sunday morning looking sharp..carrying their Bibles and offerings....their three little girls in tow.

Until one Sunday after sevices they were asked not to return. Why? Because it was known by the congregation that on Saturday nights this nice couple would frequent the local bars. They did not argue with the preacher. They left in embarrasment. Never to return. They have long since stop hitting the bars but have never again become regular members of any church.

I do not believe that people are saved if they do not repent of their sins. I also do not buy into the once saved...always saved. But what good is a church if it can not house sinners. People do not come to church to murder or rape nor have I seen anyone having sex of any nature...at least not in any church that I have attended.
People go to church to be with God. How dare the hypocrites forbid a sinner to enter. For truly, if all sinners were barred...the church would be empty. A true church does not belong to its preacher nor its congregation.
It is God's House!

LOVE

Nick_Loves_Abba · Apr 1, 2002

Wow. Amen.

I wanted to ask you debbie, how on Earth can you compare a murderer and a rapist to a homosexual?

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

Christi & NIck Loves Abba:
MAtthew 7 is devoted to judging. I have repeated myself tp no avail. Hope this scripture helps you to understand what I am trying to convey. Verse 5 says:
"THOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST CAST OUT THE BEAM OF THINE OWN EYE;And THEN SHALT THOU SEE CLEARLY TO CAST OUT THE MOTE OUT OF THY BROTHER'S EYE."
You see that we are hypocrites if we have not dealt with our own sin. We are also hypocrites if we cannot cast out the mote from our church member's(brother's) eye.
PLease read 1 Cor 5. WE are not to have these people as members of our church who commit sexual sins. WE are not to keep company with, nor eat with A BROTHER who does these things. "Purge out therefore the old leaven"12-" for what have I to do to judge them also that are without?(outside the church). Do not ye judge them that are within?(in the church).
13- "BUt them that are without, God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

NIck LOves Abba, I mentioned those sins because it was posted that all sins are the same, & that homosexuality is no worse than other sins. ON that basis, then neither is rape or murder.
I agree with catchup here. We allow the sinner into the churches, but eventually if they dont wish to repent, per scripture they should be asked to leave.

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
NIck LOves Abba, I mentioned those sins because it was posted that all sins are the same, & that homosexuality is no worse than other sins. ON that basis, then neither is rape or murder. Why do you now object to unrepented rape & murder being acceptable? Arn't all sins the same anymore?
I agree with catchup here. We allow the sinner into the churches, but eventually if they dont wish to repent, per scripture they should be asked to leave.

Christi · Apr 1, 2002

Debbie,

Please read this:

Romans 14:9-13

Also one question. I am getting the impression you are without sin. Is that true? It must be since no one has asked you to leave your church. And if it IS true, please tell me your secret!!!!

ZiSunka · Apr 1, 2002

Until one Sunday after sevices they were asked not to return. Why? Because it was known by the congregation that on Saturday nights this nice couple would frequent the local bars. They did not argue with the preacher. They left in embarrasment. Never to return. They have long since stop hitting the bars but have never again become regular members of any church.

Maybe there should have been some steps in between there. I'm pretty sure the Bible spells out how to deal with a sinning brother.

Was the bar a grill, where they cook food and also serve drinks, or was it a saloon, where they only serve liquor? There might be a difference.

Nick_Loves_Abba · Apr 1, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
Christi & NIck Loves Abba:
MAtthew 7 is devoted to judging. I have repeated myself tp no avail. Hope this scripture helps you to understand what I am trying to convey. Verse 5 says:
"THOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST CAST OUT THE BEAM OF THINE OWN EYE;And THEN SHALT THOU SEE CLEARLY TO CAST OUT THE MOTE OUT OF THY BROTHER'S EYE."
You see that we are hypocrites if we have not dealt with our own sin. We are also hypocrites if we cannot cast out the mote from our church member's(brother's) eye.
PLease read 1 Cor 5. WE are not to have these people as members of our church who commit sexual sins. WE are not to keep company with, nor eat with A BROTHER who does these things. "Purge out therefore the old leaven"12-" for what have I to do to judge them also that are without?(outside the church). Do not ye judge them that are within?(in the church).
13- "BUt them that are without, God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Isn't Matthew 7:5 saying, that before you can judge someone you must first judge yourself? Mat 7:5 Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine eye, and then thou wilt see clearly to cast out the mote out of the eye of thy brother. Basically, you can't tell your best friend not to steal when you yourself steal.

Debbie · Apr 1, 2002

Christi, I am familiar with Romans 14 & reread it . It is referring to judging fellow christians in regards to petty matters such as what they eat. Verse 13 says to not put a stumbling block in our brother's (christian's) way, or an occasion to fall either. This means that if you think it's a sin to eat meat on friday, then I shouldnt take you somewhere & get you in a situation where you have nothing to eat but meat on a friday. I also shouldnt judge your salvation because of it, nor argue with you about it. These are about petty matters. not one verse is mentioned here which is referring to a sin. Scripture mentions sins, & God didnt change his mind about what constitutes a sin. This chapter is referring to those things which are not mentioned as sins. It is speaking about those who are weak in the faith, & are not sinning. It is wrong for someone to do something if he thinks it is wrong, he is a new christian & not familiar with scripture, we are not to persecute him & judge him for it. WE cannot judge anyone's salvation.
No I am not perfect, but i have not been asked to leave the church because I commit no sin that anyone knows of. I do not know of any sin that anyone in my church commits either. I'm sure that no one in my church is perfect, but if they sin, I do not know about it, nor am I aware by rumor, or any other way, of any church member sinning.

Christi · Apr 1, 2002

Well, everyone, I'm outa here for today. Stuff to do. On a lighter note, I have a prayer request in the prayer section that God will lead me and my family to a church home. I think I should re-think that one! Sooner or later they will find out I'm a sinner and boot me out.

Christi · Apr 1, 2002

Debbie, sin that no one knows of is still sin. And by the way, what they ate was NOT a petty matter to them. Trust me on that. It was THE LAW. In that time, under what they had always believed, what they ate was an EXTREMELY serious matter. I will certainly pray God does not lead me to your church. It sounds like the people there don't even need to go! lol! Well, thank Jesus that he died for the rest of us.

Catchup · Apr 1, 2002

Debbie: Jesus has told us that the true worshipers will worship God in Spirit. When you step into church you should be provided a sanctuary. A place where you feel safe from the evil forces that we fight each day. There your spirit can pick up loving instruction from others and God... Never condemning nor judging. The door should never be barred.

The verses you recite do not support your argument.

"THOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST CAST OUT THE BEAM OF THINE OWN EYE;And THEN SHALT THOU SEE CLEARLY TO CAST OUT THE MOTE OUT OF THY BROTHER'S EYE."

You do realize that it is to you the word Hypocrite refers?

The other verses you posted are of the protection mode. They are concerned that you will be swayed by the sin of others and be led away from Christ.

I know you are a good person, Debbie. It appears that we are ganging up on you. But you are only echoing what your church has taught you. I hope you understand that none of this is personal. I would even agree with you, if we were talking about people in the congregation that were not respecting your house of worship. But other than that,I do not agree at all.

LOVE

ZiSunka · Apr 1, 2002

No I am not perfect, but i have not been asked to leave the church because I commit no sin that anyone knows of.

You better start praying that your sin never gets exposed!!!!

Catchup · Apr 1, 2002

No I am not perfect, but i have not been asked to leave the church because I commit no sin that anyone knows of. I do not know of any sin that anyone in my church commits either. I'm sure that no one in my church is perfect, but if they sin, I do not know about it, nor am I aware by rumor, or any other way, of any church member sinning.

Debbie...Please... are you saying that if they had not came out of the closet than they would be welcome at your church. Are you further stating that you and your church are not concerned with the condition of anyones heart or soul...as long as the outer appearance appears righteous. You have just described a hypocrite. On second thought, I would consider it an act of God and utter kindness from the congregation to be asked to leave your church.

I am out of here too. LOVE

ZiSunka · Apr 1, 2002

Me too!

Dave Ulchers · Apr 1, 2002

Originally posted by Debbie
No I am not perfect, but i have not been asked to leave the church because I commit no sin that anyone knows of. I do not know of any sin that anyone in my church commits either. I'm sure that no one in my church is perfect, but if they sin, I do not know about it, nor am I aware by rumor, or any other way, of any church member sinning.

Saints be praised!

SO everyone in your Church keeps every last one of the Lord's teachings?

Follow that link and double check that list, and if you speak truly: Where is this church? I would so join!

Nick_Loves_Abba · Apr 1, 2002

I'm not saying homosexaulity is not a sin. What I am saying is homosexuality isn't a sin so grave it is unforgiveable. Repentence doesn't happen overnight. Perhaps years or even decades.

I'm reminded of a saying out of the Book of Virtues. "Patients is a Virtue."

Homosexuality

I Believe Saved Homosexuals Are

Still saved

Not saved

In danger of hell

Not sure

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