Homosexuality

[JSM83]

I'm not understanding this statement.

Edited

 

[topher694]

the beginning of the thread is a question - not an accusation or a tarring many with the same brush - I’ll look over my thread and see if I accused or tarred and edit as necessary

I was not accusing you of doing that, I was clarifying my approach and the reasons for it. To put it another way I try to give people, especially leadership the benefit of the doubt

 

[Paidiske]

For what it's worth, I'd have to agree with JSM83 that in my experience, the position he describes (of churches taking a particular stance against practising homosexuality in leadership, but not these other matters) is extremely common. In fact, I would say almost across the board in my experience.

 

[JSM83]

I am not saying it is tiny,
here “...Probably 1-3 examples? Out of how many? It's a broad brush your using with little paint.”
Are you not implying the problem is tiny?

that would be to make the same error I believe you are making. I know what my personal experience reflects and that is contrary to the assumption you are making.

Further, when discussing the practices of churches and church leadership, I find it unfruitful, divisive and therefore unbiblical to start from the assumption and accusation that they are doing something wrong. It's not right to throw "most" churches under the bus as a starting point. That doesn't mean there is no error out there, clearly there is.

 

[topher694]

My question was about whether or not we are singling out homosexuals. Also, is it the point of our faith - to have everything right and always be right?

Ok, so I think I've answered this, but I'll summarize:
Do some single them out? Absolutely.

Is that the standard? I really don't think so. I think everyone is bringing up the topic and leaders are being forced to consistently answer the question, which can make it seem like it's singling out, but it's not. Frankly, it is a topic that is often blown out of proportion and has the potential hinder our ability to what is truly important, like helping others.

Our faith isn't about us always being right, it's about trusting in the One who always knows what is right. A distinction that sometimes people can lose sight of.

 

[topher694]

For what it's worth, I'd have to agree with JSM83 that in my experience, the position he describes (of churches taking a particular stance against practising homosexuality in leadership, but not these other matters) is extremely common. In fact, I would say almost across the board in my experience.

Well now that is fascinating to me. Tell me is this experience mainly denominational, regional or does it cross over such things?

 

[JSM83]

For what it's worth, I'd have to agree with JSM83 that in my experience, the position he describes (of churches taking a particular stance against practising homosexuality in leadership, but not these other matters) is extremely common. In fact, I would say almost across the board in my experience.

you’ve heard it too?
Perhaps we let others ask us questions that deflected us off the point our faith (in my opinion at least).
Maybe the point for us was to always deliver Gods love - not handle sin? Long shot speculation.

 

[Paidiske]

Well now that is fascinating to me. Tell me is this experience mainly denominational, regional or does it cross over such things?

Across denominations, although of course I know my own best. And across different regions too; although I'm in Australia, I've gone through a couple of periods of actively seeking ministry overseas.

Let me tell you this; nobody in authority/seeking to discern my vocation or next call, at any point in my ministry journey from the time I first enquired until now, has ever asked about my parenting or how my relationship with my daughter is.

 

[topher694]

you’ve heard it too?
Perhaps we let others ask us questions that deflected us off the point our faith (in my opinion at least).
Maybe the point for us was to always deliver Gods love - not handle sin? Long shot speculation.

I didn't mean to deflect, nor do I think it was off point, but I can tell you this from experience:

We are not in the business of handling sin, however as a leader I have a responsibility to steward the ministry God has given me, including those in leadership under me. Throw out for a moment the if one sin is singled out or not. The Titus & Timothy guidelines are there for a reason. Compromising them to put someone into leadership may work in the short run, but I promise you it will always cause problems in the long run.

 

[JSM83]

Ok, so I think I've answered this, but I'll summarize:
Do some single them out? Absolutely.
“Some” is where we disagree. I think it’s more notable than “some”. I’m open to being wrong - but I think it’s prevalent enough

Is that the standard? I really don't think so. I think everyone is bringing up the topic and leaders are being forced to consistently answer the question, which can make it seem like it's singling out, but it's not.
we agree, I soecualte we have let others bully us into delivering a different message - although, I think we are unwittingly singling homosexuals out.

Frankly, it is a topic that is often blown out of proportion and has the potential hinder our ability to what is truly important, like helping others.
We agree

Our faith isn't about us always being right, it's about trusting in the One who always knows what is right. A distinction that sometimes people can lose sight of.
We agree

 

[topher694]

Across denominations, although of course I know my own best. And across different regions too; although I'm in Australia, I've gone through a couple of periods of actively seeking ministry overseas.

Let me tell you this; nobody in authority/seeking to discern my vocation or next call, at any point in my ministry journey from the time I first enquired until now, has ever asked about my parenting or how my relationship with my daughter is.

Well, I guess it can vary greatly depending on the circles you are connected with. No doubt I've seen it first hand, but I've have the privilege of being connected to some very high caliber and high character ministries, I consider that a blessing.

Here's how I've always looked at the kid thing. I believe it is talking about children under your direct care (minors). I don't question people about their kids. However, if someone has a teenager who is drinking, taking drugs, abusing their parents and doing dangerous things... that sort of situation will make itself clear all by itself and very quickly. I would tell that person they need to focus on their family and not worry about ministry... family should be the priority. That automatically takes care of the leadership requirement right there.

 

[JSM83]

I didn't mean to deflect, nor do I think it was off point, but I can tell you this from experience:

We are not in the business of handling sin, however as a leader I have a responsibility to steward the ministry God has given me, including those in leadership under me. Throw out for a moment the if one sin is singled out or not. The Titus & Timothy guidelines are there for a reason. Compromising them to put someone into leadership may work in the short run, but I promise you it will always cause problems in the long run.

I don’t mean you deflected us. I mean, perhaps our job is to give our love that we received from Christ to everyone we meet. Perhaps we do that best in loving friendships and relationships. Then, someone in the media pipes up and says “is homosexuality an abomination” - we feel as though we MUST answer, and we do. Then, we find our message isn’t a delivery of love to others but rather a policy statement of our stand on homosexuality. That’s what I mean by deflection.

 

[JSM83]

Well, I guess it can vary greatly depending on the circles you are connected with. No doubt I've seen it first hand, but I've have the privilege of being connected to some very high caliber and high character ministries, I consider that a blessing.

Here's how I've always looked at the kid thing. I believe it is talking about children under your direct care (minors). I don't question people about their kids. However, if someone has a teenager who is drinking, taking drugs, abusing their parents and doing dangerous things... that sort of situation will make itself clear all by itself and very quickly. I would tell that person they need to focus on their family and not worry about ministry... family should be the priority. That automatically takes care of the leadership requirement right there.

what are the ministries? Who are the people? If they wrote books I could look into them. See what they are saying.

 

[topher694]

Ok, so I think I've answered this, but I'll summarize:
Do some single them out? Absolutely.
“Some” is where we disagree. I think it’s more notable than “some”. I’m open to being wrong - but I think it’s prevalent enough

I'll say this in response. "Some" or "many" at this point doesn't really make much of a difference. And that's what we should be about, making a difference for God's kingdom, right? Complaining about it won't help anything (not saying that's what you are doing), So the only thing I can do about it personally is actually do and demonstrate what is right and not let what others do wrong influence that.

 

[topher694]

what are the ministries? Who are the people? If they wrote books I could look into them. See what they are saying.

I can PM you some books written by people I know personally, but I've gotta go eat right now.

 

[Paidiske]

However, if someone has a teenager who is drinking, taking drugs, abusing their parents and doing dangerous things... that sort of situation will make itself clear all by itself and very quickly. I would tell that person they need to focus on their family and not worry about ministry... family should be the priority. That automatically takes care of the leadership requirement right there.

But if you don't ask those questions in recruitment, sure it might be apparent quickly once you've appointed them, but by then they've been appointed and you're much less likely to stand them down from that when they've done nothing wrong themselves. I would think?

And if they've been given the role, telling someone to "not worry" about ministry leaves open all sorts of questions; are we talking about unpaid leave? For how long? How do we expect that household to survive financially?

I don't think your response here really takes care of anything, except perhaps voluntary unpaid roles where you know the people well before you appoint them, and have the power to remove them at will.

 

[JSM83]

I’m worried that all some people ever have, last hope, is God. I’m concerned they might come to God and be turned away by church.

good night everyone - God bless

 

[topher694]

But if you don't ask those questions in recruitment, sure it might be apparent quickly once you've appointed them, but by then they've been appointed and you're much less likely to stand them down from that when they've done nothing wrong themselves. I would think?

And if they've been given the role, telling someone to "not worry" about ministry leaves open all sorts of questions; are we talking about unpaid leave? For how long? How do we expect that household to survive financially?

I don't think your response here really takes care of anything, except perhaps voluntary unpaid roles where you know the people well before you appoint them, and have the power to remove them at will.

Right, I was mostly talking about your last statement. We handle staff differently than most as we raise them up from within, therefore I have the opportunity to watch and guide them in all of the things I talked about over a good period of time.

 

[Paidiske]

Right, I was mostly talking about your last statement. We handle staff differently than most as we raise them up from within, therefore I have the opportunity to watch and guide them in all of the things I talked about over a good period of time.

I think that might be where the disparity in experience comes in. How you handle raising up leaders from within your own congregation is completely different from how most people handle raising up and appointing leaders at a more denominational/organisational level.

 

[topher694]

I think that might be where the disparity in experience comes in. How you handle raising up leaders from within your own congregation is completely different from how most people handle raising up and appointing leaders at a more denominational/organisational level.

Yep, I think you're right. However, some principles can clearly crossover.