I think some people in this thread are viewing this debate as either Christian (anti-homosexuality: sinful) or non-Christian (pro-homosexuality: not sinful). What some of us are trying to say is that many Christians quickly slide form anti-act to anti-person. This is wrong, just as it would be wrong to show judgment and disdain for someone struggling with alcohol, anger issues, or any other sinful orientation.
You ignore the fact that the pro gay side DEMANDS that homosexuality is NOT a sin. How can there be forgiveness of sins when they are PROUDLY engaged in?
Consider these two scenarios:
You have a neighbor who is a good, kind person, but is an alcoholic. He is in denial that it is sinful.
Then he is outside the body of the Church and has decided to choose the way the UN-Godly see and do things. This is a self made choice.
He says, "it's just a few drinks... I'm not hurting anyone!" In truth, he was right about not affecting others.
Porn and prostitution doesn't hurt anyone either. Especialy if he is married and his wife approves of it. Should he have a place of influence in his Church?
Although he does get drunk fairly often, he always does it at home (never drives drunk). It never affected his job or his service in his church. He reads the Bible every day and considers his relationship with God to be fine. He is also a very good, thoughtful neighbor.
Otherwise: Yes. No one can decide a person's salvation in Christ. BUT, Jesus does put requirements on behaviors of Christians. SO, UNTIL he DEMANDS to teach others how to get drunk and that drinking to excess is something God created him to "be."
To Phineas, Znex, onemorequestion, Lively Stone, and others on the one side of the debate, I ask you this question: could you be friends with this person? Would you consider him a Christian? Answer honestly.
Yes. His stand with Christ is between him and Christ. BUT if he DEMANDS to teach others how to get drunk and that drinking to excess is something God created him to "be" he must be opposed/identified. That is a consistent message in the New Testament.
and this one:
You have a neighbor who is a good, kind person, but is a homosexual. He is in denial that it is sinful.
Then he is outside the body of the Church. He has made the decision to be influenced by the UNGodly in and of the world and not the Church.
He says, "it's just a committed relationship... I'm not hurting anyone!" In truth, he was right about not affecting others.
He is wrong then. Like the drunk, they are bad infkuences on children. Jesus give a threat to these kinds of people.
Although he "lies with a man", he always does it in private. It never affected his job or his service in his church.
Then that Church is full of sinning people ENCOURAGING a brother to sin.
He reads the Bible every day and considers his relationship with God to be fine. He is also a very good, thoughtful neighbor
I'm sure the nasty people Jude talks about being IN his Church were looking good in many ways.
Ok, now ask the same question: could you be friends with this person?
No. Wheat being friends with weeds? Weeds ALWAYS infect the healthy.
Would you consider him a Christian? Answer honestly.
I would consider him a Christian if he said he was one. Other than that, I would oppose every thing he does in the definition, since there are behaviors that Christians should be known for. Keeping the marriage bed pure - one of the heaviest clobber passages denouncing gay behavior - is a a fruit of Christian life. The openly and unrepentant person engaging in homosexuality is wrong in their actions in too many ways to support, other than praying for them to repent.
Both are living in sin, both are in denial, and neither one is negatively affecting you as a neighbor (or others, for that matter).
Your opinion there is wrong. If I support them, I am putting stumbling blocks before a brother in Christ. Jesus wants to throw me into the sea with a heavy millstone around my neck for being this kind of believer.
But I have to wonder how many would show equal Christian love to both of them. I bet Jesus would!
Jesus preached repentance and salvation. If you look at just the taxcollector that Jesus vidited, you see the structure of "being" a Christian laid out well. The defiant drunk and person engaging in homosexuality are telling Jesus they won't change and it is His doing that they do not have to.
Very bad positions to hold for a Christian. Even Judas rejected his sinning at the end. The Apostles and Jesus didn't give him a congenital pass or some other guilt eliminating excuse for commiting his sin against Jesus.
In fact just the opposite.