Homosexuality

[Ohioprof]

Stop looking at it that way.

The ones who condemn you are the very same ones who are have logs in their own eyes (hypocrits). Don't worry about what people are saying or even think because there's not a heaven or a hell any of us can put you or anyone else in.

However, sin is still sin and homosexuality is sin, whether you believe that or not. Freedom and righteousness is not based on what we like/dislike or believe, but what is true. And what is true is God and every good thing about Him. It's up to us if we want to accept and follow that or not.

Besides, the kingdom of God isn't even about us. But you already know that, right?

You are free to believe that "homosexuality" is "sin," and I think you are wrong about that.

 

[Ohioprof]

Prof,

It's not about what people are doing/not doing in their bedrooms. It's about attempting to rationalize what we see as a sinful action, and as christians we are supposed to stop the spread of false doctrine.

I don't believe it's "sinful action," and there is no need to "rationalize it." Same-sex love, like opposite-sex love, is a beautiful thing, an expression of love that is given to us by God. We gay people should not have to defend living full lives simply because some other people have decided to label our love "sin." Our love is no different from love between opposite-sex spouses; both are love between committed spouses.

I also don't think it's up to us Christians to stop the spread of "false doctrine." I think we should accept that people hold different beliefs, and that's fine. That's religious liberty. People will always hold different beliefs, and that includes different Christians.

 

[Ohioprof]

I was referring to christians, theres no denying the feelings of the main denominations on the subject.


Once again, I'm not talking about society's view on homosexuality. I'm speaking of the Christian view. Every church I've been to (mostly protestant, some catholic) are in agreement that it is sinful, and I've never taken a poll but I am confident that the majority of churches throughout the denominations are in agreement.

From a completely secular standpoint I have no issue with homosexuality or gay marriage, as neither negatively effect my family or life.

Churches are changing on this question, and some are even splitting apart over it. Go to many progressive Christian churches, and you'll get a different perspective than you will at most conservative churches.

At one time, most Christian churches supported, or at least accepted, slavery. People pointed to the Bible to justify slavery, and there is plenty of pro-slavery material in the Bible. Today Christian beliefs have changed on that question, and no Christian that I know of supports slavery.

Christian beliefs change over time, and Christians disagree with each other on many questions, including this one.

 

[artybloke]

It's about attempting to rationalize what we see as a sinful action

You're perfectly free to read the Bible how you wish to. If you wish to view the Bible as saying it's sinful, you are perfectly free to do so.

However, what I, and many more Christians, object to, is one section of the church telling another section of the church how to read the Bible. It's not just to do with homosexuality; there are many instances where one section of the church insists that their interpretation is the one true universal interpretation, and all the rest are wrong. Does the Bible say or does the Bible not say that at the Eucharist we eat of the Body of Christ? One part of the church says yes, another says no.

I don't think the Bible condemns loving sexual relationships between gay men or lesbians. You obviously do. But we both read the same Bible. Like with other issues, we disagree. Does God care if we're Catholic, Protestant or (as I am) Quaker, as long as we seek to show the love of Christ in our lives? Why does God care about how we interpret, at most, 6 verses of Scripture?

The problem with many Christians is that they have a tendency toward trying to foist their interpretations on others, as if somehow they and they alone have God's ear and know what a bunch of writings from 2000 years ago mean. St Augustine once said that even if we knew the original intention was different, the true interpretation of scripture is the one that leads to an increase in love. Does your interpretation lead to an increase in love, or an increase in fear and hatred?

"I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, accept the possibility that you are wrong," as Oliver Cromwell once said to a bunch of warring Protestants. That means both of us.

 

[artybloke]

Unfortunately for your side of the argument, the vast majority is on the other side.

The vast majority of whom? An increasing number of scholars (people with knowledge of the language and culture of the ancient world), including an increasing number of Christian scholars, are actually beginning to see otherwise than the traditional interpretation. Should I take the opinion of "the vast majority" of people who don't know what they're talking about, or should I go with those that do?

where is the biblical evidence backing these sexual actions?

What isn't mentioned is neither condemned nor accepted. It doesn't say anything about kissing with tongues either.

But what about those who have spent alot of time on it, and come to the opposite conclusion as yourself?

They could be right, they could be wrong. Is that a reason for one group to universalise its opinions onto others? They're quite at liberty to disagree; but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

 

[LogosRhema]

Churches are changing on this question, and some are even splitting apart over it. Go to many progressive Christian churches, and you'll get a different perspective than you will at most conservative churches.

At one time, most Christian churches supported, or at least accepted, slavery. People pointed to the Bible to justify slavery, and there is plenty of pro-slavery material in the Bible. Today Christian beliefs have changed on that question, and no Christian that I know of supports slavery.

Christian beliefs change over time, and Christians disagree with each other on many questions, including this one.

I beg to defer, the Bible is God's Word, last I checked God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. We change things to our liking, which is out of God's Will, which does not in any way make it right. These "progressive" churches are just an excuse to "change" things as seen fit to better fit people's lives. I can tell you, by the God I live for, He does and will not change and will and can not stand for that.

So live your life as you please, as you already doing, but God has the last say in this. And for us all, for all our lives, we'll be surprised in the end because I know you don't have it all figured out and neither do I. But God as my witness I do not support any "progressive" churches to better "modify" the Bible and what it says to better fit OUR lifestyles and NOT the Holiness. Holiness is a forgotten word, and is supplemented by progressive ideals and cute butterfly feelings.

It troubles me so many people do not want to live for Him, I can guarantee to you that if a gunman came into these "progressive" churches and at gun point said if you live for Christ line up and I'll shoot you all one by one, if not then leave. The church would empty, including with the Pastor. Progressiveness is not Godliness, its pure human corruption. To not follow His will and to chase "progressive" ideals and to change the Bible to one's liking, might as well be an atheist as they are already living as they please, only difference with this progressive nonsense, is that a feeling of fake security is associated with justifying shifty lies that "supposedly" can be translated from the Bible.

As for me, I serve Jesus Christ my Lord and I try to my best to follow HIS will and not my own. That's what it is about, Him and not YOU.

 

[Leah]

No it isn't. Just because you like to cut things out of context and use them to justify your prejudice doesn't mean anyone else does.

First of all, what 'things' are you talking about? And how am I being prejudice?

and your protestations at not being prejudiced don't cut any ice, when you consistently refuse to look at the actual evidence and persist on accepting a bad translation and an out-of-context interpretation.

What evidence do I need to look at? And how is my translation of scripture against homosexuality wrong and out-of-context?

Take the log out of your own eye.

You're now saying I'm a hypocrite?? How so??

 

[Leah]

You are free to believe that "homosexuality" is "sin," and I think you are wrong about that.

How??

 

[Leah]

Hi arty,


Unfortunately for your side of the argument, the vast majority is on the other side. Granted, many (or most, even) don't spend much, if any, time to try to fully grasp the biblical view of homosexuality. But what about those who have spent alot of time on it, and come to the opposite conclusion as yourself?



Even if one could pass off all the anti-same-sex sex on bad translations and ooc, where is the biblical evidence backing these sexual actions? And furthermore, if homosexuality was a valid God-given sexual orientation, why was it completely omitted? I've yet to find a passage along the lines of "for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father or mother and be united with his wife or husband, and they will become one flesh."



If someone believes that a person is proclaiming a sin as a blessing of God, then it is part of their Christian duty to attempt to correct this false teaching.

We all have logs and splinters, the problem is when we choose to either identify and repent of our sins or justify and defend them.

I just don't understand why some think that christians are to be any less than that of Christ. And when we do speak up against sin and practice righteousness, all of a sudden we're jerks who need to take the logs and specks out of our own eyes.

Yes, I agree that we need to love one another. Love is also telling each other the truth (regardless of what your perspective is) not wanting anyone to needlessly perish, but to come to the fullness of Christ. That is my biggest desire for the body of Christ and I'm persistence and consistent with this through prayer.

So because of that, I'm the unloving, prejudice hypocrite who needs to take the log out her eye?

 

[Leah]

Why are some people so fixated on sex? Why do you care if a loving gay couple has sex in their own bedroom? It's no different from a loving heterosexual couple having sex in their own bedroom. And we have no business sticking our noses into the bedrooms of consenting adults.

Being gay is about loving our spouses, about creating and raising families. Sex is just one part of a much bigger relationship. It's no different from heterosexual relationships and families.

First of all, I'm not fixated on sex and this is the problem with most christians with this same view as you.

Sin sin't just about the physical aspect of it. It's about the mindset, moral perception and spirtuality in Christ. Those who practice sin will not inherit the kingdom of God. And I will not get into all that now. Some may be getting sick of me talking, already.

Btw, the body of Christ doesn't have it's being or even live according to polls. We live according to Christ and follow Him, not people's opinions. If we did that, we'd all be in serious trouble.

 

[Leah]

Prof,

It's not about what people are doing/not doing in their bedrooms. It's about attempting to rationalize what we see as a sinful action, and as christians we are supposed to stop the spread of false doctrine.

Bingo.

Is'nt this what God expects of us??

 

[Ohioprof]

Bingo.

Is'nt this what God expects of us??

No.

 

[Ohioprof]

I beg to defer, the Bible is God's Word, last I checked God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. We change things to our liking, which is out of God's Will, which does not in any way make it right. These "progressive" churches are just an excuse to "change" things as seen fit to better fit people's lives. I can tell you, by the God I live for, He does and will not change and will and can not stand for that.

So live your life as you please, as you already doing, but God has the last say in this. And for us all, for all our lives, we'll be surprised in the end because I know you don't have it all figured out and neither do I. But God as my witness I do not support any "progressive" churches to better "modify" the Bible and what it says to better fit OUR lifestyles and NOT the Holiness. Holiness is a forgotten word, and is supplemented by progressive ideals and cute butterfly feelings.

It troubles me so many people do not want to live for Him, I can guarantee to you that if a gunman came into these "progressive" churches and at gun point said if you live for Christ line up and I'll shoot you all one by one, if not then leave. The church would empty, including with the Pastor. Progressiveness is not Godliness, its pure human corruption. To not follow His will and to chase "progressive" ideals and to change the Bible to one's liking, might as well be an atheist as they are already living as they please, only difference with this progressive nonsense, is that a feeling of fake security is associated with justifying shifty lies that "supposedly" can be translated from the Bible.

As for me, I serve Jesus Christ my Lord and I try to my best to follow HIS will and not my own. That's what it is about, Him and not YOU.

I choose my life. I choose what I believe. God gave us brains and the power to choose how to worship, how to understand him, how to grow in faith. Not everyone believes the Bible is the word of God. I don't believe it, and people insisting that it is won't change my thinking about this.

The more I read about the origins of the Bible, the more convinced I am that the Bible is not and never has been the word of God. You have come to a different conclusion, and that's fine. We have to agree to disagree.

 

[LogosRhema]

I choose my life. I choose what I believe. God gave us brains and the power to choose how to worship, how to understand him, how to grow in faith. Not everyone believes the Bible is the word of God. I don't believe it, and people insisting that it is won't change my thinking about this.

The more I read about the origins of the Bible, the more convinced I am that the Bible is not and never has been the word of God. You have come to a different conclusion, and that's fine. We have to agree to disagree.

I'm sorry you lack faith in what it says, I just pray that you seek His Will and not substitute your own. Regardless I'll pray for you as my sister, God bless.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm sorry you lack faith in what it says, I just pray that you seek His Will and not substitute your own. Regardless I'll pray for you as my sister, God bless.

And I'll pray for you as well. We may hold different beliefs, but we are fellow human beings and fellow Christians.

 

[LogosRhema]

And I'll pray for you as well. We may hold different beliefs, but we are fellow human beings and fellow Christians.

 

[artybloke]

First of all, LogosRhema, last time I checked, Christ not the Bible is the only Word of God the Bible itself recognises. Secondly, your (inaccurate) interpretation of it is definitely not the Word of God. Do not assume that what seems obvious to you is obvious to anyone else.

 

[LogosRhema]

First of all, LogosRhema, last time I checked, Christ not the Bible is the only Word of God the Bible itself recognises. Secondly, your (inaccurate) interpretation of it is definitely not the Word of God. Do not assume that what seems obvious to you is obvious to anyone else.

I apologize but I am not understanding what you are trying to say.

John 1:1-5

"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it."


The Bible has also been known as the Word of God. Considering that the Bible is Holy Spirit inspired WORD of GOD it can be concluded by the most simple of folk that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, thus the Words and Wisdom of God are contained in the Bible and are the Bible. I do not believe the entirety of His Wisdom, Words, and Love are contained in the Bible... it would take shelves of books... an eternity of books to contain such a thing.

With that said, if God's teachings, wisdom, love and ways are the Bible then we have a bit of a guide on what pleases God and what doesn't. The Bible is meant to guide us to and through God to show us a path that is pleasing to Him. What else would it be for?

I sense a bit of bitterness with your response, regardless if I'm right in that or not, I'll pray for you.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Actually the "vast majority" does not believe that "homosexuality" is a "sin." Polls by Gallup show that a majority of Americans now say that "homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle." I personally do not like the wording of the question, as being gay is not a "lifestyle." But this is how Gallup has worded the question for years, and they examine how people's responses have changed or stayed the same over time.

I don't believe such a poll. The acceptance that we do see, however, is based on ignorance of the Word of God. So many people need Jesus, and are so easily swayed by the "Immoral Majority".

The times they are a-changin', my friend, and there is no "vast majority" looking upon same-sex relationships as a "sin." The vast majority in your church may do so, but not in the wider society. No one in my church congregation looks upon same-sex marriage that way. We took a churchwide vote on welcoming gay people as we are, and the vote was unanimous in favor of welcoming gay people as we are: as gay people. And my church Association, the Unitarian Universalist Association, has long supported the right to same-sex marriage.

Yes, times are a-changin'. You haven't described a church--but rather a social club!

Get ready for the Tribulation, folks! Jesus is on His way to judge the world.

 

[LogosRhema]

I don't believe such a poll. The acceptance that we do see, however, is based on ignorance of the Word of God. So many people need Jesus, and are so easily swayed by the "Immoral Majority".




Yes, times are a-changin'. You haven't described a church--but rather a social club!

Get ready for the Tribulation, folks! Jesus is on His way to judge the world.

We have a bit a time left, but I do suggest prepare of persecution before He returns, it's on its way.