homosexuality

[kod]

I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrew]

quote: "The verse immediately precedingÊLev 18:22 suggestsÊthisÊwas a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is notÊrefering to homosexual relationships."

You miss the point. the key here is sex between man and man -- the physical sexual act. And whether its done in some pagan rituals or in a monogamous homosexual relationship is quite irrelevant -- God is against it.

God created sex to be between man and woman for procreation and enjoyment - within a marriage. That's God's blueprint seen in Genesis and we will do well to follow it cos God made us so he knows best what works and what doesnt.

Also, look for spiritual truths, types and shadows in a man-woman relationship. eg the church is the bride of Christ, the bridegroom. this is a male-female typology. the church is not called "bridegroom" as well for a reason. in otherwords, a man does not marry a man. God gave us marriage between husband(man) and wife(woman) to help us best understand the relationship between the church (bride) and Christ (bridegroom).

that's why when Paul talks abt husband and wife responsibilities/roles, he refers so much to the church and Christ relationship.


note also, any relationship out of a marriage is called fornication, whether homosexual or not. and to avoid this, God says

1Co 7:2* Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

notice its man-wife and wife-man, not man-man or woman-woman.

 

[wblastyn]

Yes, you have to be married to have sex, and Jesus Himself said marriage is between male and female.

 

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by kod
I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

Perhaps we just need to accept God's Word for what it says, instead of trying to twist it to suit our own ideas or "cultural" preconceptions.

If the God's Word states that something is an abomination which we believe is - or should be - morally acceptable, why are we so arrogant as to think it is the interpretation of the Bible that must change to accomodate our moral opinions, rather than the other way around??

love in Christ,

Malcolm

 

[DaveKerwin]

If you read scripture, it is one man and one woman, one flesh, for life.

Homosexuality is a sin, there is no doubt about it. In my opinion, if a man is unwilling to stop his sin, it is a safer lifestlye to have a life partner instead of 100 different sexual encounters, which is the average for a male homosexual to have in his lifetime. But that lifestyle is still sinful, and should be seen as such. If I was a homosexual believer, I would be single, and ask God to change my desires.

 

[Loser For Jesus]

I agree with everything Dave wrote.

love in Christ,
Malcolm

 

[LouisBooth]

Perfect post dave..perfect!!!!!

 

[kod]

It is refreshing to hear people opposed to homosexuality not using the "all [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] will burn in hell" type of language.

The church's attitude to many minority groups has changed over time. Most brides no longer promise to obey, nor are women prohibited from speaking in church. The beating of children is no longer justified by "spare the rod and spoil the child". Our attitude to divorcees has changed, and we no longer cast demons out of people who have epilepsy. 

We cannot deny that our understanding of the Bible has developed and undergone changes, most would say for the better.

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

Were Adam and Eve black or white, were they left or right handed ... these may seem frivolous questions but it demonstrates that God meant there to be variety in His creation. Biological diversity is found in the realms of sexuality also.

When we examine the context and the original language of the Biblical evidence, as well as the historical setting, there is no unequivocal condemnation of homosexual relationships. Abusive or promiscuous heterosexual and homosxual acts are equally wrong.

 

[kod]

Originally posted by Loser For Jesus


Perhaps we just need to accept God's Word for what it says, instead of trying to twist it to suit our own ideas or "cultural" preconceptions.

If the God's Word states that something is an abomination which we believe is - or should be - morally acceptable, why are we so arrogant as to think it is the interpretation of the Bible that must change to accomodate our moral opinions, rather than the other way around??

love in Christ,

Malcolm

 

When you say "twist it", I would say "understand it".

The debate about women pastors in this forum is an indication that it is necessary to study and interpret what the Bible says.

It is not always easy (2 Peter 3:16). It is only easy when we approach these issues with a predetermined mind set.

 

 

[LouisBooth]

KOD it makes it very clear in romans that it is unnatural and sinful.

 

[wblastyn]

I posted this over at the Men's Forum, but since not everyone goes there:

Here is a quote from someone over at CARM.org, it's pretty much everything I've been trying to say:

Homosexuality is the longing of someone to identify with their own masculine/feminine inferiority issues via sex with the same gender
people are predisposed, but its not genetic(immutable)its fluid and can be changed. The issue is when the sexual arousal patterns get so embedded in the neurons it makes it difficult for them to come out of, but it would be possible.

 

[kod]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
KOD it makes it very clear in romans that it is unnatural and sinful.

When you examine Romans chapter 1 in detail you find some interesting insights.

Paul is describing people who engaged in promiscuous sexual practices related to pagan idol worship (v23)  - a not uncommon occurrence in Corinth from where this letter was written.. 

The words "exchanged" or "gave up"  (v 26 &27) indicate that Paul is referring to heterosexual people who indulged in homosexual practices. Most homosexuals are aware of their orientation from a very early age and therefore do not "give up" relations with the opposite sex"

The word "natural" more likely refers to a person's individual intrinsic nature, not some universal law of nature. 

"burned in their lust" (v27) does not describe the loving and supportive relationship that exists between many gay couples.

The use of the plural ("men with men") suggests promiscuous behaviour

"shameless acts" puts the emphasis on sexual behaviour, not love and relationship

The last part of this verse refers to the "penalty for their error" which is often interpreted as sexually transmitted disease - again, this would not apply to a monogamous couple.

People often interpret the words "them" and "they" in this chapter to mean "homosexuals". It is difficult to maintain this interpretation when you get to verse 29 where Paul lists diverse sins.

It is my understanding that this chapter condemns certain specific same sex behaviour but does not relate to a monogamous homosexual relationship.

 

 

 


 

 

[LouisBooth]

"Paul is describing people who engaged in promiscuous sexual practices related to pagan idol worship (v23) - a not uncommon occurrence in Corinth from where this letter was written.. "

Even if you want to say that, which is not the case, the nature of the relationship between men lusting after men is unnatural and therefore wrong. This think that happend was not having to do with the second part of the passage. As a result of them turning away from God, he said, go ahead, do what you want then they started practicing in sinful practices, such as homosexuality. One doesn't have to do with the other. It wasn't they participating in this worshiping other gods that made the homosexuality wrong, it was the actual act of homosexuality that was wrong. Look at the verse. because of this God gave them over to their lusts, this is something that exsisted long before their turning away from God. but it is still wrong according to Paul who calls it unnatural and akins it to murder, malice and all other kinds of evil.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by kod
It is refreshing to hear people opposed to homosexuality not using the "all [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] will burn in hell" type of language.

The church's attitude to many minority groups has changed over time. Most brides no longer promise to obey, nor are women prohibited from speaking in church. The beating of children is no longer justified by "spare the rod and spoil the child". Our attitude to divorcees has changed, and we no longer cast demons out of people who have epilepsy. 

We cannot deny that our understanding of the Bible has developed and undergone changes, most would say for the better.

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

Were Adam and Eve black or white, were they left or right handed ... these may seem frivolous questions but it demonstrates that God meant there to be variety in His creation. Biological diversity is found in the realms of sexuality also.

When we examine the context and the original language of the Biblical evidence, as well as the historical setting, there is no unequivocal condemnation of homosexual relationships. Abusive or promiscuous heterosexual and homosxual acts are equally wrong.

Homosexuals can come to my church. Homosexuals who have homosexual sex will be cut off from fellowship, and possibly expelled for being immoral, depending on the individual situation.

You are right, there is no unequivocal evidence that condems (specifically) a long term homosexual relationship. But you are missing something here. Do homosexuals who live together have sex? Yes, otherwise they would not be partners. So what does the Bible say about homosexual sex? SIN!
You might also note that the Bible does not specifically address what type of tooth paste a homosexual should use, but this is not liberty to justify the homosexual lifestyle. The bottom line (which you need to see) is that homosexuality is against God's design, and it is sin, there is no playing this off.

Are you asking all this because you are homosexual ?

 

[ZiSunka]

When homosexuals are excluded from the church, there are two consequences. They will be more likely to engage in a promiscuous lifestyle, or they will be inclined to hide their sexual orientation and perhaps even marry and have children.

How interesting that you have made these the only two choices, and placed the blame on the church, not the homosexual.

Do you realize that every person decides for him/herself what actions they are going to make in their lives and that casting blame for personal choices is an inherently immature behavior?

I think it is wrong for you to assume there are only two actions gays can make--to embrace or to deny. What about the role of growth and change? I would think that we as Christians would all understand and embrace growth and change; it's one of the big themes of the NT.

And as for it all being the fault of a rejecting church--what do you expect the church to do? Fling its doors open and allow sin to overrun without any expectations of character or self-control? There are many unmarried people in the church, should we allow them to engage in non-marital sexual activity? If some sex outside of marriage is okay, why not all sex?

Gays need to come to grips with the fact that homosexuality is not embraced by the church because it is not embraced by God.

 

[Loser For Jesus]

Originally posted by lambslove
There are many unmarried people in the church, should we allow them to engage in non-marital sexual activity? If some sex outside of marriage is okay, why not all sex?

You know, this is an interesting point that has often come up when I've spoken to homosexuals before. Often, one of their arguments is that homosexuality is part of "who they are" and why should they deny that? Of course, the fact is that sin is part of who we all are, and a big part of being a Christian is specifically to deny our sinful nature by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that I'm a heterosexual isn't an excuse for me to go out and have sex whenever and with whomever I choose, whether its in a "loving relationship" or not. I had to deny my sinful nature and choose not to have sex until I got married (just a few months ago!). In fact, I didn't even "date" - I just waited on God and tried to devote my life as a single man to serving Him.

Now, if someone wants to call themselves a "homosexual" and claim its genetic or "part of who they are" or whatever, that's fine. The point is that God intended sex to be part of marriage, and marriage to be between a man and a woman. Whether you're a "homosexual" or a "heterosexual", anything outside of that is sin. Period. All the arguments about "temple prostitution" and "pagan rituals" don't make the slightest bit of difference to that one basic fact.

People are not defined by their sexuality. They are defined by their relationship to God. Either they will deny themselves and be obedient to God and receive life by His grace, or they will indulge themselves in disobedience and receive death as the wages of sin.

Deu 30:19-20  This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live (20) and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

love in Christ,

Malcolm

 

[DaveKerwin]

Right on Malcomb !

 

[Knight]

Well said LFJ.

That is one of the best descriptions on this topic I've read. Good job.

My biggest gripe with homosexuals is the fact that they've assigned "minority status" to themselves. The claim is that they were born this way and they have no choice in the matter. The simple fact is that they HAVE chosen this lifestyle. They're now a protected group and if we rebuke this activity we're accused of being hateful and prejudice. This has become a new weapon for satan against Christians.

To combat this we need to do exactly what you've done. Explain what God's Word says about this issue and stress that is the sin we oppose and not the sinner. God's Word commands us to hate the sin and love the sinner. I'll admit that this is difficult at times but we must always persevere and trust the Lord.

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by kod
I started a thread on this subject in another forum but it seems to have been hijacked by non believers. I am interested in discussing the issue with those who accept the authority of the Bible.

I am aware of the 7 main references to same sex behaviour in the Bible but feel that these do NOT conclusively show that a monogamous homosexual relationship is wrong.

For example, the reference in Leviticus 18:22 ("You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination") requires us to examine the meaning of the word "abomination". 

The verse immediately preceding Lev 18:22 suggests this was a prohibition to participate in pagan idol worship which involved these practices, and therefore is not refering to homosexual relationships.

In the Old Testament there are several Hebrew words translated as "abomination" and most of them refer to things that we do not believe to be morally wrong (eg  a woman wearing pants  Deut 22:5).

 

 

 

 

 

 

You don't give up do you Kod ?

May I ask If your church is located in or around Sydney  ?

 

[wblastyn]

My biggest gripe with homosexuals is the fact that they've assigned "minority status" to themselves. The claim is that they were born this way and they have no choice in the matter. The simple fact is that they HAVE chosen this lifestyle. They're now a protected group and if we rebuke this activity we're accused of being hateful and prejudice. This has become a new weapon for satan against Christians.

Exactly, this annoys me so much. If we try and oppose them we are called hateful, homophobic bigots. They claim they were born this way and that is who they are. What will happen if homosexuality is proven as a developmental disorder, which is changeable. What will happen to their "it's normal, we were born this way".

To combat this we need to do exactly what you've done. Explain what God's Word says about this issue and stress that is the sin we oppose and not the sinner. God's Word commands us to hate the sin and love the sinner. I'll admit that this is difficult at times but we must always persevere and trust the Lord.

Well all we can do is spread the truth, except we can't make people listen or believe what we say.