Homosexuality, why it is a mental defect.

[BAFRIEND]

So if it's programmed in, wouldn't that mean it would be inborn? So really it's Gods fault people are born gay?


uhmm since it's your analogy, shouldn't you figure out why God made people gay?
tulc(language is an agreement between people that certain sounds mean certan things, being lefthanded is inborn, having brown eyes is inborn, being gay is inborn)

God did not make people gay. Left handed ? Brown eyes ? ... I said a defect. More like being born without arms.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Tulc, how about this ? This was from Damogh in a thread from 7-2-07:

OK, here are my thoughts, and they are based on a Dutch doctor that has had a private psychotherapeutic practice since 1963.

At a young age, boys that develop same sex desires typically viewed themselves negatively when comparing themselves to peers as they were growing up. These boys begin to greatly admire, even idolize, those males they see as being "real men". This trait is more prevelant than any other trait of homosexual men - that when they were growing up, they viewed themselves as less than their peers.

Studies now show that it wasnt the abusive father or sexual abuse or feminine characteristics that "make" a person have same sex desires - it's how you viewed yourself in comparison to peers. (It just so happens that boys that are abused by fathers, or sexually abused, or feminine acting, or with more sensitive feelings, tend to feel this way about themselves compared to peers more than most boys.)

However, it's not just the perception of oneself when you are growing up - it's also how you handle that perception. People handle their perception of themselves differently. For instance, my father-in-law is insecure, but he handles his insecurities by "being better than everyone else", and "never being wrong" (even when he is), and putting others down to make himself look better. In other words, a false cockiness. If you handle it by greatly admiring and idolizing your peer males you wish you were like, you develop same sex attractions.

As adults, gay men can become very self-assured and confident - but it doesnt matter how you feel and think about yourself as an adult; what causes same sex desires is how you compared yourself to peers growing up.


Think about your own life. When you were entering puberty, how did you view yourself in comparison to your peers? I know how I felt. I'm genuinely curious, how did you view yourself in relation to your peers growing up?

Now, this person is a homosexual and his inferiorities are the cause, according to him, why he developed a same sex attraction.

The question is though, can a person who developed a fixation on his peers due to feeling of insuperiority, really grow up to be normal ?

 

[tulc]

Now, this person is a homosexual and his inferiorities are the cause, according to him, why he developed a same sex attraction.

Uhmmm so people who were insecure grow up to be gay? There must be a lot more around then 3% then, because I don't know anyone who wasn't insecure growing up...unless there was something else that contributed to him becoming gay?

The question is though, can a person who developed a fixation on his peers due to feeling of insuperiority, really grow up to be normal ? (emph. added)

Well if you can define "normal" in such a way as to cover every aspect of it you might be on to something, until then normal really is just a setting on a washing machine.
tulc(who got a plush Cthulhu for his birthday!)

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Now, this person is a homosexual and his inferiorities are the cause, according to him, why he developed a same sex attraction.

Perhaps, but are you suggesting that, because of the testimony of this (alleged) homosexual, all homosexuals are 'that way' because of their insecurities and/or peer fixation?

The question is though, can a person who developed a fixation on his peers due to feeling of insuperiority, really grow up to be normal?

Well, yes. Only feral children grow up without peers to fixate upon, and no person grows up without insecurities of one form or another.

And I await your response to my previous post on page 2, BAFRIEND.

 

[BigBadWlf]

God did not make people gay.

Evidnece please

 

[BigBadWlf]

OK, here are my thoughts, and they are based on a Dutch doctor that has had a private psychotherapeutic practice since 1963.

An unnamed individual is hardly a reliable source for any claim

An unnamed individual writing before either of us were born is hardly impressive as evidence.

At a young age, boys that develop same sex desires typically viewed themselves negatively when comparing themselves to peers as they were growing up. These boys begin to greatly admire, even idolize, those males they see as being "real men". This trait is more prevelant than any other trait of homosexual men - that when they were growing up, they viewed themselves as less than their peers.

I see multiple unsubstantiated claims here.
What age specifically?
Where is the evidence for this “negative comparison”?
Where is the evidence for the claim of “idolize”?
Where is the evidence for the claim of prevalence that is being made?

Studies now show that it wasnt the abusive father or sexual abuse or feminine characteristics that "make" a person have same sex desires - it's how you viewed yourself in comparison to peers. (It just so happens that boys that are abused by fathers, or sexually abused, or feminine acting, or with more sensitive feelings, tend to feel this way about themselves compared to peers more than most boys.)

To what studies is he referring to?



All in all it sounds more like someone with a pet theory and nothing to support it

 

[ChaliceThunder]

God did not make people gay.

I am living proof that He DOES make people gay.

 

[lmnop9876]

the jury is still out on whether same-sex attraction has neurological, neurochemical, or psychological bases. what seems most likely to me is that there are a number of complex neurochemical, endocrinal, hormonal, and neuroanatomical factors which interact to create the biological base from which homosexuality may develop if the individual is exposed to certain environmental or developmental factors during key stages of their psychosexual and psychosocial development.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I am living proof that He DOES make people gay.

How can you prove it, though?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

How can you prove it, though?

• God made him who he is.
• He is gay.
• Therefore, God made him gay.

The first premise is more his personal belief than a fact, much less an empiracle one. Nevertheless, within the Christian tradition of 'made in his image', his words ring true.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

How can you prove it, though?

Personally, I don't NEED to prove it. I merely stated it as proof to those who disbelieve.

 

[Brieuse]

Well, that was a good post.

Some of the homosexuals here get defensive when they have no answers.

This is a debate forum, not a support group.

Some threads don't deserve answers.

 

[OllieFranz]

If you're not sure, wouldn't it be better to abstain even if it MAY be sin?

Yes, if you have any doubts, then for you it is sin. Until you are sure, you should assume it is sinful and avoid the activity. (Which is why I quoted 1 Corinthians 8 and referenced Romans 14 and Colossians 2)

But the way to clear up your doubts is to study and pray and be guided by the Holy Spirit. And my study and prayer and reliance on the Holy Spirit have shown me that there are only four passages which are relevant to the question of whether all forms of same-sex activity are sinful. Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; and 1 Timothy 1:8-11. That they only forbade one form of homoerotic expression, by one of the partners, and only for the Jews, as an expression of ritual separateness.

All of the other passages are talking about other things entirely. You can only try to claim Genesis 19 is not about evil political terrorism including gang-rape if you ignore the parallels to Judges 19 and 1 Chronicles 19.

You can only focus on the fact that the example of sexual addiction in Romans 1:26-27 is same-sex if you ignore the fact that Paul was quoting from two different older documents, one Jewish (Wisdom of Solomon) and one Greek (Plato's Laws), and was trying separately to lull the Jewish readers and the Greek readers into the same "trap" in chapter 2. For the Jews, he was trying to invoke the Leviticus ban, without spelling it out, but for the Greeks, the example came straight out of Laws, where Plato (or rather the character of "the Atheninan") makes it clear that the homoeroticism in the example is mostly meant as a tweak to one of the other characters in the dialogue, a Cretan (On Crete in the time of Plato, they were more "relaxed" about when an eromenos' training was over than in Athens or Sparta, using Ganymede (aka Catamitos) as an example.)

All other passages used to condemn homosexuality condemn either temple prostitution in general as idolatry, or condemn sexual immorality in general and both depend on already assuming that homosexuality is sin.

On the other hand, gays are mentioned twice in the New Testament, and while they are not praised, neither are they condemned for being gay.

 

[Ohioprof]

God did not make people gay. Left handed ? Brown eyes ? ... I said a defect. More like being born without arms.

Being gay is NOT like being born without arms. Gay people are completely whole, healthy human beings. We are just different from you in our sexual orientation.

Why do you have so much trouble accepting people who are different from you?

 

[UberLutheran]

Interesting, bafriend: I feel the very same way about fundamentalists, regardless of their religion.

I believe that if one is a fundamentalist, there is little (if any) possible way that one deal with social or political issues objectively -- hence, I won't vote for a fundamentalist of any stripe.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

When you look at an object, what you are seeing is its reflection caused by light bouncing off it.

This is reflected on the eyeball and the image is chemically transferred to the brain.

This image forms in the mind.

In fact all pain and physical sensation are in the mind, ie: figments of our imagination.

So, what does it mean to be same-sex attracted ?

It means that through a failure in interpretation, your brain leads you to be attracted, sexually, to wrong the wrong sex.

It is like a bad program in a computer. A defect.

It is as though when you were being programmed, someone really screwed up. Like you started talking Chinese instead of English.

Now, if English is your native language, and you go around speaking Chinese, that does not do you a heck of a lot of good now does it ?

Barfriend...we know u like to stir the pot. You have been posting anti gay rhetoric for months, and you continue to get no where with your constant bashing of people different than you, and then making it into something biblical. It seems to me, based on ur rants, that you look to the bible as your basis for sexuality. How sad that is.

As for your analogy above..its futile to argue any point with you. You talk about "gene pool" etc..but seem to always leave out the heterosexuals that are unable to conceive. What would be the point of a woman to have her period if she can't have a child? Why would God give man testicles if he were sterile? Not everyone is made to produce, and for that matter...more homosexuals than ever before are having kids. Sexuality has nothing to do with whom can conceive or who wants children. That is just the result of a sexual act. Many homosexuals WANT children...many heterosexuals DO NOT. It just is what it is..so no need to aruge the point further.

 

[BAFRIEND]

As for your analogy above..its futile to argue any point with you. You talk about "gene pool" etc..but seem to always leave out the heterosexuals that are unable to conceive. What would be the point of a woman to have her period if she can't have a child? Why would God give man testicles if he were sterile? Not everyone is made to produce, and for that matter...more homosexuals than ever before are having kids. Sexuality has nothing to do with whom can conceive or who wants children. That is just the result of a sexual act. Many homosexuals WANT children...many heterosexuals DO NOT. It just is what it is..so no need to aruge the point further.

You kind of lost me here ? Why would I bring up straight issues regarding certain conditions regarding sterility excetera on a homosexual debate forum. There is enouph of that in regular CP&E. There is nothing in this thread about children or conceiving. Seems off topic, like you have something else on your mind.

There is a difference between a man and wife in a sacramental marriage than between an adulterous straight or gay couple that makes your point on sterility mute. Does that help you understand why that is non-issue that I do not address ?

You seem to be comparing people who cannot conceive because they are sterile (a medical/physical disorder) with homosexuals, get the irony ?

 

[UberLutheran]

There is a difference between a man and wife in a sacramental marriage than between an adulterous straight or gay couple that makes your point on sterility mute. Does that help you understand why that is non-issue that I do not address ?

Protestants (excluding some Anglicans) do not believe that marriage is a sacrament.

In your view then, are Protestant marriages invalid? What about Jewish or Muslim marriages? Agnostic or atheistic marriages?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Protestants (excluding some Anglicans) do not believe that marriage is a sacrament.

In your view then, are Protestant marriages invalid? What about Jewish or Muslim marriages? Agnostic or atheistic marriages?

This is the homosexual debate forum. I have no intention of debating theology or denominational issues here.

Why don't you start a thread in the theology forum ?

If I did not believe that a Jewish marriage was sacramental, then what would be the point ? God said the Jews were his people and he does not lie. As far as protestant denominations, they can be valid (IMO) in the same sense my denomination recognizes most evangelical baptisms.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[OllieFranz]

This is the homosexual debate forum. I have no intention of debating theology or denominational issues here.

Why don't you start a thread in the theology forum ?

If I did not believe that a Jewish marriage was sacramental, then what would be the point ? God said the Jews were his people and he does not lie. As far as protestant denominations, they can be valid (IMO) in the same sense my denomination recognizes most evangelical baptisms.

Hope that answers your questions.

Ah, but you were the one who first used the phrase "sacramental marriage." I suspect that UberLutheran thought that you were using the phrase to give some kind of definition of "sacramental" marriage that excludes same-sex marriage, so his question is on topic for a homosexuality debate forum. He was attempting to pin you down on what made a "sacramental" marriage different from any other marriage.

Uber was attempting to point out that using the word "sacramental" would seem to exlude legal marriages between non-Christians and even members of many Protestant denominations. If you are willing to accept those marriages as legitimate, then the distinction of "sacramental" cannot be used to claim that same-sex marriages are not legitimate.

It's time to fish or cut bait. We are waiting for you to clarify what you meant be a "sacramental marriage" and why you referred to one.