Homosexuality vs Fornication???

[cantata]

I know a lot of pro gay men will say, they have nothing wrong with homosexual men. So, I'd like to ask them one very simple question that I highly doubt will be answer by them.
Why aren't you gay?
If there is nothing wrong with gay sex, why don't you enjoy it from time to time?
The obvious and most straight forward answer will be, it's not for me.
That however, doesn't actually answer the question. It doesn't say, why you wouldn't. You're not describing the effect you think homosexual sex will have on you that keeps you from having it.
Which is the real answer to the question.

What about gay sex to you seems so bad that you wouldn't do it at all?
I'm sure plenty of guys would be happy to fornicate. How many heterosexual men would be happy to sleep with a gay man?

You know what? The thought of having sex with Mick Hucknall makes me extremely uncomfortable (and I am attracted to men). It doesn't mean there's anything abnormal about his girlfriend, though.

 

[Inviolable]

No, I don't, try clarifying yourself instead of answering questions with questions.



It's not about blame. I'm naturally attracted to women, no question about that. But lets say a gay guy offers me oral sex... I wouldn't accept probably ever, but when I think about it what difference would it make if it was a male or a female offering? I can only think it is societal influences that would make me completely uncomfortable if it was a guy performing it.



Try me

O.K.

To get technical read Side's post. Thats a good post.

To get un-technical but still saying the same thing, read my post.
Add the fact that gay sex makes me personally have almost the same feeling I get when I think about incest. Just so not cool.
I'm guessing it will probably feel the same way to you. Emotionally.
Just scary.

Turn it around and say the gay guy asked you to do him a favor.
How does that make you feel? It cant all be about society?
I'm sure you would probably be thinking about that while the gay guy was doing his thing to you. Maybe just in the back of your mind but non the less, it's there. Just because you wouldn't mind one act doesn't make it all O.K.

I'm willing to go as far as to say that if a guy had given you oral sex you wouldn't forget it for that reason. There'd always be the question of how you would have felt if you were giving the oral sex.
Society wouldn't be the only reason you'd remember it.

It would almost be as if you were taking advantage of someone who would do something you would never do.
Something you would never do because of how emotionally uncomfortable it makes you feel.

That sounds immoral to me and from what you said in your post "I wouldn't accept probably ever, " it sounds as if you might agree.

 

[Inviolable]

You know what? The thought of having sex with Mick Hucknall makes me extremely uncomfortable (and I am attracted to men). It doesn't mean there's anything abnormal about his girlfriend, though.

Yeah... I'm not a woman.

But I can tell you that there are plenty of women I wouldn't sleep with.
It's called personal interest or preference and not to be confused with sexual orientation.

 

[cantata]

Yeah... I'm not a woman.

But I can tell you that there are plenty of women I wouldn't sleep with.
It's called personal interest or preference and not to be confused with sexual orientation.

I think it's pretty much the same, actually. Gay men simply find themselves attracted to certain (but not all) other men, rather like straight women find themselves attracted to men, and there's nothing in the slightest bit unnatural or abnormal about that. That straight men who are comfortable with gay men don't want to have sex with men merely tells you about their personal preference, and their very mature and sensible ability to separate that from their moral judgements about other people's preferences.

 

[Inviolable]

I think it's pretty much the same, actually. Gay men simply find themselves attracted to certain (but not all) other men, rather like straight women find themselves attracted to men, and there's nothing in the slightest bit unnatural or abnormal about that. That straight men who are comfortable with gay men don't want to have sex with men merely tells you about their personal preference, and their very mature and sensible ability to separate that from their moral judgements about other people's preferences.

Are you saying homosexuality is a choice?

 

[stan1980]

O.K.

To get technical read Side's post. Thats a good post.

Which post number is it?

To get un-technical but still saying the same thing, read my post.
Add the fact that gay sex makes me personally have almost the same feeling I get when I think about incest. Just so not cool.
I'm guessing it will probably feel the same way to you. Emotionally.
Just scary.

Same here, yes, although quite honestly I'd rather sleep with a guy than my sister.

Turn it around and say the gay guy asked you to do him a favor.
How does that make you feel? It cant all be about society?

I'd decline, I wouldn't be that bothered that he asked me though.

I'm sure you would probably be thinking about that while the gay guy was doing his thing to you. Maybe just in the back of your mind but non the less, it's there. Just because you wouldn't mind one act doesn't make it all O.K.

I'm willing to go as far as to say that if a guy had given you oral sex you wouldn't forget it for that reason. There'd always be the question of how you would have felt if you were giving the oral sex.
Society wouldn't be the only reason you'd remember it.

Kind of irrelevant, and I fully admit I wouldn't let it happen as it would be on my mind the whole time he was doing the act that it was a guy doing it. I wouldn't let a woman I didn't like give me oral sex either. If I'm not sexually attracted then I'd rather not go there. That doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong if someone else, another guy, is willing to accept off the same person I've declined.

It would almost be as if you were taking advantage of someone who would do something you would never do.
Something you would never do because of how emotionally uncomfortable it makes you feel.

Yep, pretty much.

That sounds immoral to me and from what you said in your post "I wouldn't accept probably ever, " it sounds as if you might agree.

I suppose you could consider it would be immoral for me to accept a proposition from someone that I know for sure that we have no future, if they are expecting more than a 'one-off', but it isn't immoral for someone else to go with the same person if they think it could lead somewhere. So I don't see why this makes homosexuality wrong all in all.

 

[Inviolable]

Which post number is it?



Same here, yes, although quite honestly I'd rather sleep with a guy than my sister.



I'd decline, I wouldn't be that bothered that he asked me though.



Kind of irrelevant, and I fully admit I wouldn't let it happen as it would be on my mind the whole time he was doing the act that it was a guy doing it. I wouldn't let a woman I didn't like give me oral sex either. If I'm not sexually attracted then I'd rather not go there. That doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong if someone else, another guy, is willing to accept off the same person I've declined.



Yep, pretty much.



I suppose you could consider it would be immoral for me to accept a proposition from someone that I know for sure that we have no future, if they are expecting more than a 'one-off', but it isn't immoral for someone else to go with the same person if they think it could lead somewhere. So I don't see why this makes homosexuality wrong all in all.

Ahhh I see now. You're trying to debate with me because you think I'm saying it's wrong. Define wrong.

I'm bipolar, yet known to be pretty smart when I wants to be =p
It doesn't make me wrong for being who I am.
I don't think homosexuals are wrong for being who they are.

Abnormal maybe. I certainly am.


So far I'm talking to two posters who have confused preference with sexual orientation. Neither of which is gay and have no idea as to how gay people come to the conclusion that they are in fact gay.

Whats even more surprising is that I myself have no idea how gay people decide they're gay. Nor have I ever tried to suggest how they do.
I've only told you honestly how I feel about it.


To do other wise would be to suggest you think homosexuality is a choice.
" I wouldn't let a woman I didn't like give me oral sex either."
How could you compare that statement to sexual orientation with a straight face?
I don't like chicks with Mohawks, so I think I'll run out and have sex with a guy. Cause really, Mohawks turn me off.
Jude Law here I come baby!

 

[cantata]

Are you saying homosexuality is a choice?

Why would you conclude that I'm saying that?

Gay people's sexual orientation comes down to personal preference, just as everyone else's does. The range of people you are attracted to is limited to women. The range of people gay men are attracted to is limited to men. The range of people I am attracted to is not limited by sex. In other words, you have a preference for women, gay men have a preference for men, and my preferences are not limited by people's sex. That doesn't indicate that any of those preferences are a matter of choice, though. I dare say you didn't choose to be attracted to women rather than men. But then, I dare say you didn't choose to be attracted to blonde/brunette/slim/curvy/femme/butch women, either. You simply find yourself attracted to a particular range of people, just like gay people do.

So far I'm talking to two posters who have confused preference with sexual orientation. Neither of which is gay and have no idea as to how gay people come to the conclusion that they are in fact gay.

Am I one of these two posters? I'm bisexual, if that makes you feel any better. But I have also studied sexuality in detail. It is a matter of interest to me.

Whats even more surprising is that I myself have no idea how gay people decide they're gay. Nor have I ever tried to suggest how they do.

I don't think they decide they're gay, usually. I think they discover they're gay.

To do other wise would be to suggest you think homosexuality is a choice.
" I wouldn't let a woman I didn't like give me oral sex either."
How could you compare that statement to sexual orientation with a straight face?
I don't like chicks with Mohawks, so I think I'll run out and have sex with a guy. Cause really, Mohawks turn me off.
Jude Law here I come baby!

You aren't attracted to women with Mohawks, so you don't have sex with women with Mohawks. Gay men aren't attracted to any women, so they don't have sex with any women. What's the difference? One criterion for whether you're attracted to someone is their hairstyle; another is their sex. What's the difference between those two criteria?

 

[Inviolable]

Why would you conclude that I'm saying that?

Gay people's sexual orientation comes down to personal preference, just as everyone else's does. The range of people you are attracted to is limited to women. The range of people gay men are attracted to is limited to men. The range of people I am attracted to is not limited by sex. In other words, you have a preference for women, gay men have a preference for men, and my preferences are not limited by people's sex. That doesn't indicate that any of those preferences are a matter of choice, though. I dare say you didn't choose to be attracted to women rather than men. But then, I dare say you didn't choose to be attracted to blonde/brunette/slim/curvy/femme/butch women, either. You simply find yourself attracted to a particular range of people, just like gay people do.



Am I one of these two posters? I'm bisexual, if that makes you feel any better. But I have also studied sexuality in detail. It is a matter of interest to me.

Did you "choose" to be bisexual?

I don't think they decide they're gay, usually. I think they discover they're gay.



You aren't attracted to women with Mohawks, so you don't have sex with women with Mohawks. Gay men aren't attracted to any women, so they don't have sex with any women. What's the difference? One criterion for whether you're attracted to someone is their hairstyle; another is their sex. What's the difference between those two criteria?

You can't grow into a sexual orientation. It's there like eye color or how big your teeth are. Doesn't matter if it's discovered. It's there.
But you can gain or lose interest all the time.
You can not be attracted to Mohawks one day and the next want to dry hump the very next Mohawk you see.

 

[cantata]

Did you "choose" to be bisexual?

Yes, but I don't see how that's relevant.

You can't grow into a sexual orientation. It's there like eye color or how big your teeth are. Doesn't matter if it's discovered. It's there.
But you can gain or lose interest all the time.
You can not be attracted to Mohawks one day and the next want to dry hump the very next Mohawk you see.

And some people find that they were attracted to one sex for their whole life and are now attracted to the other. People do change, although it's not very fashionable to talk about it.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. It's hardly surprising that the shape of people's genitals is an important determining factor in whom we are attracted to - far more so than hairstyle - but I don't think that's a basis for concluding that people who happen to like people whose genitals are the same shape as their own are in some sense unnatural. You know what? Not that many heterosexual men in the West are attracted to girls with Mohawks (probably for gender reasons). It doesn't make the ones who are attracted to those girls unnatural.

 

[Inviolable]

Yes, but I don't see how that's relevant.



And some people find that they were attracted to one sex for their whole life and are now attracted to the other. People do change, although it's not very fashionable to talk about it.

I don't see how any of this is relevant. It's hardly surprising that the shape of people's genitals is an important determining factor in whom we are attracted to - far more so than hairstyle - but I don't think that's a basis for concluding that people who happen to like people whose genitals are the same shape as their own are in some sense unnatural. You know what? Not that many heterosexual men in the West are attracted to girls with Mohawks (probably for gender reasons). It doesn't make the ones who are attracted to those girls unnatural.

Hey, some people don't see a birthmark on their back until they're half way through with life. Doesn't mean it wasn't always there.
So you sound very confused. My apologies.
Still doesn't change what preference is or isn't.
Because you sound so confused, this will be the last post I make to you.

Thank you for the chat and have a good day.

 

[cantata]

Hey, some people don't see a birthmark on their back until they're half way through with life. Doesn't mean it wasn't always there.

Why are you so averse to the idea that people can change? I did.

So you sound very confused. My apologies.

I'm not at all confused. I have no idea why you think I am.

Still doesn't change what preference is or isn't.

That doesn't constitute a reasoned argument, I'm afraid.

Because you sound so confused, this will be the last post I make to you.

Thank you for the chat and have a good day.

I think you would do well to be less condescending and less dismissive of other people's experiences.

I also think refusing to speak to people because you take it upon yourself to designate them "confused" is not very Christian, or indeed, very pleasant.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Yea ur correct, a sin is a sin

And that is why it is wrong for Christians to eat shellfish, shave, wear clothing made of mixed fibers, and wear glasses to church because these are all sins

 

[B'alaam]

Because you sound so confused, this will be the last post I make to you.

As a long time lurker here, Cantata has always struck me as one of the least confused people on these forums

 

[BigBadWlf]

Let me say right from the start, that I have nothing against homosexuals.

Yet your entire post says the exact opposite.

I completely understand that they can not help but be who they are and I don't judge them for that. I say that because I often get in these conversations and people freak out because of what I have to say.


I've been refining this conversation and I think I finally have it.

Let me explain.
I think homosexuality is worse then fornication but not for the same reasons that the OP may have had in mind and certainly not because I don't like gays or lesbians. I'm not bias toward homosexuals at all.

Nothing in your attempted justification here says it is for any reason other than your own personal bias

The homosexual issue is the same way. Now I know the APA doesn't classify homosexuality as a mental disorder. I have to say, the only reason they don't is because they cant treat it. There's no cure for Alzheimer's either but doctors still try to treat that.

False. The APA removed homosexuality from the DSM because homosexuality does not and never has fit even the broadest definition of mental illness. Those wanting homosexuality to be a mental illness failed and for over thirty years have failed to provide any evidence that it is a mental illness.
I recognize that pretending that somehow homosexuality is a sickness helps you justify your personal prejudices but what you are implying about homosexuality and mental illness and the APA is just false.

I'm not saying that homosexuality is a mental illness.

Yes you are.
You are saying it when you make the above claims about the APA
You are saying it when you talk about treating it

I am saying that it is certainly viewed upon as abnormal.

By the same criteria being anything but white is “abnormal”

Even by homosexuals. I only say that because the majority of the homosexuals I've talked to admit to questioning their sexuality. Admittedly most of them have said they only question their sexuality because of the negative response they have had from the majority of society.

The same response you are trying to justify

But look at it this way.
If a man, any man approaches me with bedroom eyes. I'm going to treat him like the screaming guy and avoid him at all cost. So would most other heterosexual men.
If I walk up to a gay man and say, man that girl is hot!
He wont have the same response. Not even close to it. He might even tell me that he's gay and the girl does nothing for him. But he wouldn't want to avoid me in the same fashion.

What makes you think any man would be romantically interested in you?


Your personal aesthetic preferences as to who is and who is not attractive has no baring on the justification of personal prejudice, it is just more of your bias

I know a lot of pro gay men will say, they have nothing wrong with homosexual men. So, I'd like to ask them one very simple question that I highly doubt will be answer by them.
Why aren't you gay?

You say this yet you still try to claim that somehow you are not biased that you “have nothing against homosexuals” that you “don't judge”

If there is nothing wrong with gay sex, why don't you enjoy it from time to time?
The obvious and most straight forward answer will be, it's not for me.
That however, doesn't actually answer the question. It doesn't say, why you wouldn't. You're not describing the effect you think homosexual sex will have on you that keeps you from having it.
Which is the real answer to the question.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with being Oriental. Will you ask me why I am not Oriental?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with being Jewish. Will you ask me why I am not Jewish?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with being left-handed. Will you ask me why I am not left-handed?

There are many people who are not members of a minority that reject prejudice towards that minority

What about gay sex to you seems so bad that you wouldn't do it at all?
I'm sure plenty of guys would be happy to fornicate. How many heterosexual men would be happy to sleep with a gay man?

Now a lesbian will come in, read my post and ask the question, what about two women? And then say, I'm sure you're not talking about that.
I can tell you this much. If a guy is attracted to two women having sex that only confirms his heterosexuality.

If you think lesbians sex is so great…why aren’t you a lesbian?

I do know for gay men there is only one problem. That is that they can not explain exactly why they can only be gay. Sadly for them the majority of heterosexual men only know that they cant help but be gay. So they steer clear of them.

Why can you only be heterosexual?

Or is it not expected that you should explain about yourself?

I can tell you exactly why I'm not gay. I can also tell you that I didn't have to put any thought into it what so ever.

The entire idea of gay sex makes me very uncomfortable. "Only" when it looks as if I might be the one being considered for gay sex.
I could care less what two gay men do in the privacy of their own home.
That has nothing to do with me.

It's so uncomfortable, it's worse then the thought of having sex with a sibling. But viewed upon much in the same light and both to be avoided at all cost.

Why are you pretending that the answer a gay man would have to your “question” would be any different or less satisfying than the answer you just gave?

I might add, that it's easy to see what the results of sex are suppose to produce. But then someone some where will tell me animals have gay sex and that makes it natural. Or something stupid.

By “stupid” you mean that you are unable to actually respond to the point

Anyway. It's easy to see that it's far more natural to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. Of course that issue has to be clouded because people don't want to use common sense.

case in point

Which doesn't help the issue. It only weakens the argument for homosexual rights and reinforces the belief that homosexual sex is abnormal.
Simply because it appears that people are grasping for straws.

Which they are and then they're cramming their newly found ideas down our throats. Pretty much forcing us to act as if we don't think gay sex is normal. Which is the only problem I have with the whole issue.

Racists say the same thing about civil rights. Can you explain why your position is different?

If homosexuality cant be helped, explain why it cant. Let the world know your story so they wont avoid you on the street.

Can black skin be "helped"?

 

[BigBadWlf]

O.K.

To get technical read Side's post. Thats a good post.

To get un-technical but still saying the same thing, read my post.
Add the fact that gay sex makes me personally have almost the same feeling I get when I think about incest. Just so not cool.
I'm guessing it will probably feel the same way to you. Emotionally.
Just scary.

Turn it around and say the gay guy asked you to do him a favor.
How does that make you feel? It cant all be about society?
I'm sure you would probably be thinking about that while the gay guy was doing his thing to you. Maybe just in the back of your mind but non the less, it's there. Just because you wouldn't mind one act doesn't make it all O.K.

I'm willing to go as far as to say that if a guy had given you oral sex you wouldn't forget it for that reason. There'd always be the question of how you would have felt if you were giving the oral sex.
Society wouldn't be the only reason you'd remember it.

It would almost be as if you were taking advantage of someone who would do something you would never do.
Something you would never do because of how emotionally uncomfortable it makes you feel.

That sounds immoral to me and from what you said in your post "I wouldn't accept probably ever, " it sounds as if you might agree.

You responded to and dismissed your own post


Lets reword this to change genders:

“Turn it around and say the woman(who you “wouldn’t sleep with”) asked you to do her a favor.
How does that make you feel? It cant all be about society?
I'm sure you would probably be thinking about that while the woman was doing her thing to you. Maybe just in the back of your mind but non the less, it's there. Just because you wouldn't mind one act doesn't make it all O.K.

I'm willing to go as far as to say that if a woman had given you oral sex you wouldn't forget it for that reason. There'd always be the question of how you would have felt if you were giving the oral sex.
Society wouldn't be the only reason you'd remember it.

It would almost be as if you were taking advantage of someone who would do something you would never do.
Something you would never do because of how emotionally uncomfortable it makes you feel.

That sounds immoral to me and from what you said in your post "I wouldn't accept probably ever, " it sounds as if you might agree.”

And your response:

But I can tell you that there are plenty of women I wouldn't sleep with.
It's called personal interest or preference and not to be confused with sexual orientation.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Are you saying homosexuality is a choice?

Not what was said or even implied.

You have stated that you are not attracted to all women. By the same token gay men are not attracted to all men, they have personal preferences just as you do.

Or are you saying that heterosexuality is just a choice?

 

[Inviolable]

As a long time lurker here, Cantata has always struck me as one of the least confused people on these forums

Huh, the person with five post drops in to leave me this one post.

I don't know man. Cantata didn't seem to know if homosexuality was a choice or not but knew right away that bisexuality was.

Here I'll give another long and drawn out example of how the entire conversation went. Only to help give you an over view of what I was trying to do. The topic has nothing to do with the OP but will highlight exactly how our conversation took place. It will also not represent any of the people involved in anyway. Other then to show how the conversation went.

As I said, I'm bipolar. Last emotional meltdown I had was roughly ten years ago. I don't know if you've ever suffered through manic depression, let me assure it sux.
I calmly took myself to the psych ward and because I was calm they didn't strap me to a gurney. They did give me a juice box and ask me to wait until they contacted my doctor. I'm laying on the gurney looking up at the ceiling, more like through it at the stars outside in my mind. Thinking this sux and I need to see the shrink soon. Suddenly they brought in this girl who was screaming her head off. NO! over and over again.
She was cute, have to admit. As her sobbing yelps of NO! got louder and louder the staff was rushing to get something, anything to calm her down.
I sat up and looked her in the eye from across the room. I wanted her pain to stop even though my pain felt almost out of control.
She seen me and stopped yelling and stared back into my eyes. Calm.

You know what happened? She gained understanding.
She seen the pain in my eyes and knew she wasn't alone. Someone felt as bad or almost as bad as she did. Someone else knew what she was going through and she seen that.
Thats all it takes in this world for people to get along. Understanding.
Thats what my post was about.

Then, suddenly. A gay guy in a pink football uniform and a tutu runs into the room, slams a football down onto the floor and yells, Touchdown!
The gay guy then yells out, all right people ... People! Gather round, everyone gather round. I don't want to have to say this twice!
This adversity thing is really bringing me down. Sooo! We're going to have to change all that. No more independent thought. Everyone! YooWoo! Yes hello? Everyone!
From now on everyone is going to have to think like me. I would really rather enjoy getting married. So from now on just don't rationalize stuff.
Seriously! I don't have the time or patients to make you understand, so here are some words I need you all to remember.
Preference, interest and gay!
If a man likes red hair, he could also very well be gay. Don't forget sandy blond hair. Thats the color of Jude Laws hair and that man can sink his ship in my waters anytime! Oh snap.

Thats how the conversation went, not representing anyone. Just an example of what happened.
Now this next example is how it looked. Once again I am in no way shape or form trying to compare anyone to this example. I am simply saying how it looked. I'm going to use dogs, but I do not think in the least that anyone here is a dog.

There are two dogs with two different owners. Both dogs are given smart pills. One dog is rational and understanding. The other dog is in denial and is in no way willing to cope with reality.
The rational dog takes his pill and suddenly says...
Man, the toilet bowl. Really I had no idea what you guys used it for. I apologize, I feel so ashamed. I always ever knew that the water was cool and refreshing. I really really had no idea you guys defecated in there.
Oh man! the liter box! Oh my gosh that wasn't just a crunchy nugget. You know? like a candy bar. I had no idea it was cat poop. Oh man I need mouth wash. Hey, Hey! You got any mouth wash?
That dogs owner then does the following. *pats the dog on the head*
Good boy! You're such a good boy! Here, here's some mouth wash. We're going to the store later. Would you like to come along and pick out what you want for dinner and maybe later you can choose what gender you want to marry.

Now the dog in denial takes his pill.
Well, you see... I have developed a highly heightened sense of personal preference for the toilet bowl and as a result I really have to drink the toilet water. The waters cool and refreshing and it makes my nose tingle.
Oh man. Toilet water, I think I'll have some right now.
By the way I have also grown a very high and sensitive likeness for cat poo. So please ignore the fact that I eat it and that I will more then likely be eating my own poo later.
That dogs owner does the following.
Bad dog! No gay marriage for you! And hits him on the nose with a news paper.

 

[Inviolable]

Not what was said or even implied.

You have stated that you are not attracted to all women. By the same token gay men are not attracted to all men, they have personal preferences just as you do.

Or are you saying that heterosexuality is just a choice?

Read post #78.

Thank you!

 

[Inviolable]

You responded to and dismissed your own post


And your response:

Read post # 78. Thank you!