Homosexuality vs Fornication???

[HannahBanana]

Back in the Hebrews time, I think one could view it being sinful.

See, God commanded His people to go forth and multiply. So, anyone being homosexual is contradicting that. Now, I'm not to sure how celibacy worked back then, though a number of priest had children (I think Samuel was one).

But a lot of that stuff isn't relevant today, so the question is this part still relevant. On that, I think you will hear a lot.

True, though I did mean "how is it sinful in this day and age?" But thanks for the information.

 

[Athene]

People do not go to hell because they sin. They go to hell because they do not see that what they are doing as being sinful (then turning to GOD for forgivness in the LORD JESUS CHRIST), and/or they see merit in their own works/lifestyle that (they feel) earns them salvation (which is not possible).

It seems to me that this standard is only applied to sexual sin. Over in the Non-demon congregational area a while ago somebody started a thread on 'holy gossip'. ''We need to pray for Bill and here's why...'' or tacking on ''Bless them'' to the end of a malicious sentence as if that somehow neutralises the gossipy nasty nature of it. The churches are full of 'holy gossipers' who won't acknowledge their sin or even see they're doing wrong. If people go to hell because they do not see their wrongdoing as sinful then the only people going to heaven will be hermits and some monks and nuns who took a vow of silence.

 

[cantata]

You can believe in sin and believe in science. It's called "being a liberal Christian."

You can certainly believe in both, but science doesn't have anything to say about ethics.

Once you have your moral code, you can use scientific evidence to help you discern the best way to achieve your aims, but science can't tell you anything about what your initial moral code should be.

 

[HannahBanana]

You can certainly believe in both, but science doesn't have anything to say about ethics.

Once you have your moral code, you can use scientific evidence to help you discern the best way to achieve your aims, but science can't tell you anything about what your initial moral code should be.

True. But when did I say that science could help you determine your moral code?

 

[Beanieboy]

Dear SDSoccerchick32,

You are correct in noting that there are other sexual sins which the Church condemns as sinful. My own Church does preach that all these sexual sins separate us from God. As far as I can see, the one real difference is that there are no adulterers insisting that adultery is not condemned as a sin, and that it is just another reflection of God's love; ditto with fornication.

Really?

Mathew 19
9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Is there any one in your congregation who lives an "adulterous lifestyle" for divorcing his wife for reasons other than unfaithfulness, and has remarried?

Do we still think of that person as committing adultery today?
Are people who have remarried for reasons other than unfaithfulness not allowed to be members of your church?

My bet is that they talk about "their (second) wife/husband" to others, don't refer to the other as the adulterer or adultress, nor to themselves as such. Nor do they refer to their marriage as "living an adulterous lifestyle."
They are usually quite happy about it, will even talk about being divorced and remarried openly, and have no shame whatsoever.

50% of marriages in the US end in divorce, and I have a hard time believing that all of them are due to infidelity, and I assume most of them remarry at some time in their lives.

So, rather than discussing the issue of adultery as plainly stated in the Gospel, people condemn homosexual marriage, claiming that it threatens the holiness, stability, and seriousness of marriage, while divorce seems to be much more of a threat.

 

[Beanieboy]

I was once told this explanation:
"People that have premarital sex will eventually get married one day, so they will stop. However, homosexuals will simply continue." In other words, it's saying to gay people that it doesn't matter whether you go to orgies or are committed for 25 years to one person - it's all bad.

Imagine someone comparing your heterosexual marriage to a frat boy that sleeps with so many women he can barely remember their names, the guys who lie to women to sleep with them at bars, the men who employ prostitutes, or the guys who go to strip clubs to have lap dances.

Insulting? Sure. Logical? Not in the least.

And as someone has said before, it boils down to what makes the person uncomfortable.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Beanieboy,

I suspect the difference between our cultures may make the questions you ask here a little rhetorical in nature:

Really?

Mathew 19
9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Is there any one in your congregation who lives an "adulterous lifestyle" for divorcing his wife for reasons other than unfaithfulness, and has remarried?

No.

Do we still think of that person as committing adultery today?
Are people who have remarried for reasons other than unfaithfulness not allowed to be members of your church?

Yes. Yes, if they have made a confession of their sin, have done whatever penance the Church recommends, and they have repented of their sin. The Church is not a law court, it is a spiritual hospital. We are all sinners, we are all called to repentance.

My bet is that they talk about "their (second) wife/husband" to others, don't refer to the other as the adulterer or adultress, nor to themselves as such. Nor do they refer to their marriage as "living an adulterous lifestyle."
They are usually quite happy about it, will even talk about being divorced and remarried openly, and have no shame whatsoever.

I suspect you are in a Western rather than a Coptic congregation; there is much shame attached (alas, in my view, since it can lead to people suffering more than they need to) to divorce, which is only permitted in the Coptic Church if one's wife or husband has been unfaithful.

50% of marriages in the US end in divorce, and I have a hard time believing that all of them are due to infidelity, and I assume most of them remarry at some time in their lives.

I am sure you are correct.

So, rather than discussing the issue of adultery as plainly stated in the Gospel, people condemn homosexual marriage, claiming that it threatens the holiness, stability, and seriousness of marriage, while divorce seems to be much more of a threat.

You may be correct, although I would hesitate to pronounce on the motives of others - even those who had no hesitation in doing so themselves; the very inaccuracy of their assertions would make me think twice before joining their ranks.

There are many threats to marriage, but that is not where the Church begins. It begins with the notion that sin is what separates us from God, and that following His laws is the best way to avoid sin. It begins also from the belief that we are all sinners, but that God loves us so much that He sent His only-begotten Son that we should have eternal life. Part of embracing that message is accepting that we have need of repentance; another part is accepting that when we have repented, we need to try to avoid slipping back into old habits - even whilst acknowledging the likelihood that we will.

No one, of course, has to embrace Christianity, or any other form of belief, even non-belief. But if we do, and we do so in a Church which follows traditional Christian teaching, we have a number of choices: we can accept that teaching and try to follow it; we can refuse to accept it and try to change our Church; or we can find a Church which will follow our line of reasoning.

What there is no warrant for doing is hating any of our fellow human beings. God is love, we are told; we are told to love even our enemies; so those Christians who cannot follow these precepts sin, just as much as do adulterers, fornicators or active homosexuals. Recognising our own sinfulness, what ever that consists of, might, with prayers and effort, lead us to cease condemning others. The sin is condemned by the Church as separating us from God; but the God who judges us all is so far beyond our comprehension of justice that He loves us even though we are sinners. Surely we, made as we are in His image, could manage to leave the judging to Him and get on with trying to spread more love around in this world?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[SDSoccerChick32]

Back in the Hebrews time, I think one could view it being sinful.

See, God commanded His people to go forth and multiply. So, anyone being homosexual is contradicting that. Now, I'm not to sure how celibacy worked back then, though a number of priest had children (I think Samuel was one).

But a lot of that stuff isn't relevant today, so the question is this part still relevant. On that, I think you will hear a lot.

God says to do a lot of stuff in the Bible that no one really does anymore; eating shellfish, wearing earrings, etc.

Honestly, I just wanted to see what the hardcore, Bible-quoting Christians had to say about this. Of course, there are no Bible verse posts. Hhhhmmm. Anyway, I'm a Christian but I'm utterly annoyed by the "self-righteous" ones who bust out their Bible verses condemning homosexuality when there is a high percentage you (not you Law..."you" in general) were participating in pre-marital sex; oh, I mean..."straight" pre-marital sex . Hypocrites!

Ugh! I'm getting annoyed just typing this. Perhaps I should change my religion lol. Most Christians put on a "front" anyway; it's sooooo annoying...way to pretend like you're perfect. Spare me...

(Sorry, I had a moment )

 

[Beanieboy]

When Jesus tells the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, it doesn't have to do with not committing this or that sin that they are separated. It is how they showed their love for others, and in doing so, did that for Christ. Those that did not show love were sent away.

 

[seeker777]

But how exactly is homosexual sex sinful, when you look at it in the realm of facts and science?

Ancient man wrote the Bible and the cultural influences in regards to the subjugation of women, acceptance of slavery, condemnation of homosexuality / fornication and glorification / acceptance of violence at the hands of God, to name a few, are all evident.

 

[HannahBanana]

Ancient man wrote the Bible and the cultural influences in regards to the subjugation of women, acceptance of slavery, condemnation of homosexuality / fornication and glorification / acceptance of violence at the hands of God, to name a few, are all evident.

Exactly! Well-said, by the way.

 

[Beanieboy]

God says to do a lot of stuff in the Bible that no one really does anymore; eating shellfish, wearing earrings, etc.

Honestly, I just wanted to see what the hardcore, Bible-quoting Christians had to say about this. Of course, there are no Bible verse posts. Hhhhmmm. Anyway, I'm a Christian but I'm utterly annoyed by the "self-righteous" ones who bust out their Bible verses condemning homosexuality when there is a high percentage you (not you Law..."you" in general) were participating in pre-marital sex; oh, I mean..."straight" pre-marital sex . Hypocrites!

Ugh! I'm getting annoyed just typing this. Perhaps I should change my religion lol. Most Christians put on a "front" anyway; it's sooooo annoying...way to pretend like you're perfect. Spare me...

(Sorry, I had a moment )

Christ said not to judge, lest we be judged, for the measure you judge, so shall you be judged.

Quoting Leviticus? Be prepared to answer for you "sin" by the entire book.
Don't judge with mercy? Be prepared to be judged without it.
Judge without listening to the person, and judging on appearances? Expect the same.
Expect others to be held to the Law, shrugging half of it off yourself? You have sentenced yourself to be judged under the Law.

Someone told me, "I will simply be judged for homosexuality being a sin." I beg to differ. The Pharissee wasn't judged on saying that cheating people out of money, as the tax collectors did. He was judged on his self exhaltation, and in so, humbled. He was overly confident in his righteousness, and shown that he wasn't. He was judged as he judged.

Some Christians will say, "nooooo, not me! I'm forgiven!"
However, Jesus told a story of a Master who forgave a man a great debt. The man refused to forgive the small debt of his servent. This angered the Master, who reinstated the man's debt.

 

[jcook922]

A lot of Christians say Homosexuality is a sin and if you don't "turn from your ways, you will go to hell!" My question to you is, those who fornicate, do you think they will go to hell? God says a sin is a sin. One doesn't weigh more than the other. So, why aren't people condemning fornicators and telling them they are going to hell? Divorce is a sin. Lying is a sin. Why are most of these ignored on the 'bandwagon-to-hell" list? Is it b/c it is more acceptable now-a-days? I mean..."everybody's doing it!" lol Seriously, what is your take on this?

Looking forward to the answers; this should be interesting

Meh, no moral reservations towards fornication here.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Meh, no moral reservations towards fornication here.

jcook asked some good questions, why don't you try answering them?

 

[jcook922]

jcook asked some good questions, why don't you try answering them?

Well she asked for everyones take on it so I was just being honest.

 

[SiderealExalt]

We are ALL sinners. We ALL fall short. ALL our rightousness is like filthy rags. For one sinner to tell another that they are going to hell for their sin is irresponsible.

Speak for yourself.

<-not a sinner.

Anywho, I think the most insightful post so far was the one that suggested that perhaps that is why some Christians don't want homosexuals to be able to marry. Because it would end their designation of always fornicating.

It's almost like some people are just scared to admit that they(homosexuals) really are people just like themselves.

 

[cakes&buttercream]

I believe that homosexual sex, fornication, adultery etc. are sin, but I also believe that it is God's place to pass judgement on those sins and the sinners place to repent and/or change their behavior if that is what they choose to do. I feel it is our place as christians to love one another and share the truth/word in love and try to live our own lives to the best of our ability and let the Lord convict people of their wrong doings.

Agreed!

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I'm pretty scared by the idea that all 'sins' carry the same weight with 'God'. I can't say I'd get along with a being that would stand me and Hitler together and give us the same treatment. What sort of person does it take to think that a white lie ('no you don't look fat in those jeans') and cold-bloodedly slaughtering millions of people because of their race are even comparable, let alone equal?

 

[imluvd]

I believe they are both a sin, with so many others. But I do agree that the church treats both of them very differently. Actually you put homosexuality up against any other sin and I bet the mainstream church would say it is a worse sin. I don't agree that one sin is worse then another, they are all equally bad and you have to repent from all of them.

I don't think God puts degrees on sin, but man. God just wants us to love him above all else, to repent and live christlike lives. You would think this should be a no brainer to do, but heck, it is the hardest thing any of us could do.

And the bible does tell us to make those who are believers accountable, even throwing them out of the church if they don't change from their ways. Well we know that isn't happening, because these preachers are to worried about that tithe money. But if we were to run our churches like the bible says, then lets say a person committing the sin of adultery would have to repent of that sin or risk being thrown out. The only ones that we are not suppose to judge in that respect is the unbeliever. He is there to learn, he is only to be made accountable for his sins when he accepts Jesus Christ, not before then.

Christians even when they know someone is doing something wrong is to take it to that person first, if they don't turn from their sin then. Then it goes before the preacher, then if they still don't turn away, they are taken before the church. Then and only then, if that person has still not turn away from their sin, then they are removed from the church. But could you imagine how much money a church would lose if they did that? That is the problem with the church today, they don't make any christian accountable, so the world thinks we are allowed to do whatever we want because we profess Christ, thus making us hypocrites.

I believe in most cases preachers are doing their congregations the worst kind of injustices. I believe that is why there is so much confusion now about what is right and what is wrong, because preachers are to worried about that all mighty dollar then truly raising up strong disciples. I honestly don't think that Jesus disciples sinned every day, thus asking for repentance every day, but neither do I think they were perfect. Heck, you can read the bible and see they weren't. But I think above all us they loved God deeply and were living the most Christlike lives that they could.

We as christians are suppose to love the sinners and to show them Christ lives in us, by the way we live our lives. Yes, you can tell a unbeliever he is sinning, but I don't think you can do that before you have built a trusting relationship with that person. I think they have to see a difference in you and desire that difference, before they will ever accept the truth of God's Word. I think the thing we do that is so wrong as christians, is we want to tell everyone to repent or go to hell, before we ever let them get to know us or us them. How can you do anything in love, when you don't know someone? I think instead of arguing who is right or who is wrong, we should instead try to get to know each other. Only then are we ever going to be able to change views or lives.

 

[SDSoccerChick32]

Imluvd, the tone of your posts are completely different. Good job! I actually enjoy reading them now...

But, I'm making this post b/c no one has answered my question. A lot of Christians say you can't be a homosexual and go to heaven. So, if that's the case, if you did any sin (b/c God doesn't weigh sins), you wouldn't be able to go to heaven, right? No one ever takes it that far sooooo I guess Homosexuals will be in Heaven, right? (Homosexuals who are Christians)

**I still think it's interesting that people aren't posting their Bible verses talking about sin and hell (<--b/c it'll condemn them!). I guess those only pop up when it's time for discrimination??