Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

Fireinfolding said:

So God gave them over to their addictions? (or temptations?) rather then their lusts?

I hate when someone throws in a new word into the mix (like above) concerning "lifestyle" lol

Addictions are not lusts? (which are desires for)?

Peace

Fireinfolding

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Don't worry about the terms. The idea is that once God "gives us over" to our sins*, we are stuck in a downward spiral from which we cannot escape. At least not by any power on earth. We can only be saved by His Grace. Which He is faithful to provide.
[BIBLE]1 John 1:9[/BIBLE]

*Any sins. I spoke of lust and sexual sins because that was Paul's example in Romans 1:26-27.

JayJay77 said:

Now, there are two really good arguments that the "christian-gay" community have:

1) that sodom and gomorrah's homosexuality was not the same as that of today, which is more faithful to one partner vs. gang rape, and multiple people. The argument is that a faithful relationship with the same gender is not lust, but commitment.

And 2) that the "unnatural" argument Romans throws out is targeting heterosexuals who change to homosexuals; thus, not condemning the homosexual "born" that way.

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Both sides are wrong to argue "natural" by way of science. That simply is not the way the ancients used the word. Concentrating on the phrases "according to nature" and "against nature" is a red herring.

As the Stoics formalized their philosophy, certain words and phrases took on specialized meanings. The phrases "according to nature" and "against nature" in their formal writings became moral judgments. "Against nature" was almost interchangeable with another of their formal phrases: "that which ought not be done."

Just as today the common people misuse psychological terms and empty them of most of their meaning, so too did the common people back then with philosophic terms. For the common people, the meaning shifted from "what ought [not] be done," to "what ought [not] be expected of them." There was a shift away from (but not a total split from) the idea of i being morally right or wrong, to the idea of being how it is done -- not the "right" thing to do it but just the thing to do. (With an unconscious attitude of that's the way it has always been. For many people "according to nature" simply meant "what I expect," and "against nature" meant not what i expected."

In his other letters, Paul seems to use the phrases in that more common way. Short hair on men is "according to nature" and God's grafting of the wild olive branches onto the domestic tree is against nature. But in Romans 1, Paul seems to be aiming his meaning in the gray area between the formal Stoic definition, and the popular usage, so that the reader can assume that Paul is agreeing with his opinion of the issue, no matter what opinion he held.

You see, the two phrases were a red herring for the original readers as well. To lull the into believing that Paul agrees with their opinion on the terrible sinners all around them. The are the bait for the trap lying in wait in Romans 2:1-3

I'm pretty sure they'd say that 1 Cor. 6:9's word of "homosexuality" is the greek word: malakos, which means (according to a greek-english dictionary) limber, soft, smooth, mild...not necessarily "homosexual." Other translations say "effeminate," which really does mean "lady like," but the argument is over the translation of greek to english.

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Although "malakos" (soft) was used at least once to mean graceful, that was in an advertisement by a dancer commenting on his dancing skills. It was rarely, if ever, used to label someone effeminate.

Most often it was used to indicate someone whose muscles were less developed, less hard. It could be used either positively or negatively. And, when used as a negative, the idea often shifted from physical strength to strength of character. By not exercising virtue and resisting vice, a person was no longer able to resist the temptation of his special vice.

There is not enough information to know what temptation they can't resist. Possibly that is deliberate. If we don't know which particular sin haunts the "malakos" sinners, we are all free to assume it might be the same as our own greatest temptation, whatever it may be, and so place ourselve in the "malakos" sinners' place: standing in the need of God's grace.

JayJay77 said:

First of all, let me explain that I am against homosexuality, the lifestyle, not the person. Even God says that He loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

However, with homosexuality on the rise (even in my small, conservative community) I want to sharpen my sword of truth by seeking scripture.

No doubt, the majority on this site agree with me. So let me be the Devil's advocate arguing for homosexuality. I am not trying to make anyone mad, but just trying to sharpen my own sword. Please join me in this debate, as it has already in our church circles.

So, is homosexuality wrong? Prove it.

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What lifestyle is this?

JayJay77 said:

So, I guess we have to argue about whether or not we can argue about homosexuality. Please visit:
http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm

This is no longer a lifestyle that is being kept secret. It is infiltrating our churches...our very priesthood!!!

The Presbyterian church has already voiced its tolerance of homosexual minsters preaching from the pulpit! (Now granted, it's really the same as an alchoholic minister, or a youth pastor committing adultery.) None the less, it is not right.

So how are you going to tell a gay pastor that he cannot preach at your church? How can you prove that homosexuality is wrong? Where are the scriptures?

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Well, it's terrible isn't it? These horrible gays are infiltrating your church. The horror.

Let's sharpen our swords.

OllieFranz said:

Don't worry about the terms. The idea is that once God "gives us over" to our sins*, we are stuck in a downward spiral from which we cannot escape. At least not by any power on earth. We can only be saved by His Grace. Which He is faithful to provide.
[bible]1 John 1:9[/bible]

*Any sins. I spoke of lust and sexual sins because that was Paul's example in Romans 1:26-27.

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God is truly amazing that way!

I kinda had a bit of a smoking habit...nothing too heavy...but something I couldn't fully rid myself of no matter how hard I tried.

And then I remember one day just really, earnestly, admitting to God that all I could do was rely on Him to take care of it...'cause nothing I tried worked. The result....I had never imagined quiting smoking could be so completely effortless. It's like....before I knew it, I was a non-smoker. Truly weird!


God bless

Fireinfolding said:

Where does it show in scripture anywhere of two men or two women coming together as Gods natural intended use for their bodies?

In Sodom Lot offered his daughters to that which the men sought of the men, if it was gang only that was wicked why did Lot offer the exchange?

See what Im asking?

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Perhaps a better question...if these were gay people, why would Lot even bother to offer up his daughters to them to start?

JayJay77 said:

First of all, let me explain that I am against homosexuality, the lifestyle, not the person.

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*giggles*

Y'know, I just love this notion that homosexuality is a "lifestyle". Always make me laugh when I read that.

David.

JayJay77 said:

So, I guess we have to argue about whether or not we can argue about homosexuality. Please visit:
http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm

This is no longer a lifestyle that is being kept secret. It is infiltrating our churches...our very priesthood!!!

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Umm - there have been gay clergy since the church began.

JayJay77 said:

The Presbyterian church has already voiced its tolerance of homosexual minsters preaching from the pulpit! (Now granted, it's really the same as an alchoholic minister, or a youth pastor committing adultery.) None the less, it is not right.

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Many need to hear (and already have heard) the word of God preached by gays and lesbians.

JayJay77 said:

So how are you going to tell a gay pastor that he cannot preach at your church? How can you prove that homosexuality is wrong? Where are the scriptures?

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You can't

Well, it's terrible isn't it? These horrible gays are infiltrating your church. The horror.

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It's wonderful that they're in church and learning about God. I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem lies in how the gays will most likely react to the doctrinal stance of the Presbyterian church. That church denounces homosexuality and proclaims it to be a sin. If modern evangelical Christianity has taught us anything, it's taught us that NOBODY likes being called a sinner in church. I don't think the Presbyterian church is going to change it's position though, because a group of people may be offended by it. But we'll have to wait and see. Other churches have made concessions to them, the Presbyterians could go the same way. Time will tell.

Let's sharpen our swords.

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Yes, let's sharpen our swords with the word of God on this matter.

Zecryphon said:

"The quotations from Leviticus do indeed intimate that God forbids homosexual love from the people of the law. We christians, however, are not required to keep the levitical law."

Actually the verses seem to say that God forbids the action, not the love. And the 10 Commandments act as a mirror, a curb and guide for the Christian. The other aspects of the Mosaic law we are not required to keep. We are not even required to keep the 10 Commandments, in terms of salvation, they are only there to point us to our need for a savior in Jesus Christ.

"There are just whole huge bunches of those laws that we regularly and flagrantly violate, and that's okay. They aren't for us. They're for Israel."

There are 603 other laws. The purpose of the law was not abolished or done away with with Christ's sacrifice for us. Without the law, the greatness of God's grace and mercy are robbed of their meaning. It's just not as sweet, people don't appreciate it as fully as they do when they realize why they need it.

"The Romans passage (if you read it in its entirety) indicates that homosexual inclinations are a punishment for sin, not that they are themselves sinful."

If that's correct why would you wish to inflict such a punishment upon yourself? Especially one, that God Himself considers an abomination?

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God forbids the action AND the passion. Lust is conceived in one's heart. Just like with murder, it is the thought of hate itself that is murdering someone in your heart. So too the act and thought of homosexual lust. When God made Adam, there were no other human beings, thus there was no such thing as sex, or heterosexuality, or homosexuality, until after Eve was made, There were no other males. When the first other male did appear, it was Adam's son. That would not only have been homosexuality, but incest as well. The fact of the matter is that all homosexuality is a total abomination to the Lord God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward unto every man according to his works.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Zecryphon said:

"God making them male and female and joining these two as one is a basis for something isnt it? Showing (at least) in the foundation (before all things) its not male and male, but male and female (at least there) I would think. Other then that I'd say love for one another."

We have a misunderstanding. I was asking basically, what defines the homosexual lifestyle? It's a term that is always thrown out there, but isn't really appropriate as the life of a homosexual person is only radically different from that of a heterosexual person in the area of sexuality. Every other aspect of life is pretty much the same. What defines the heterosexual lifestyle? A lifestyle is not confined to choice of sexual partner. So, now that we understand my question, does anyone have an answer?

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The life of a homosexual person is different also in that they have committed themselves to sin, given themselves over to iniquity, and that affects more than just your sexuality. It affects how God blesses you.

For instance, if you are committed to being a bank robber for the rest of your life, surely eternal life does not abide in you. If you are committed to being a mass murderer as a hobby, then surely the love of God and the life of God, who is love, does not dwell in you. Every tree is known by its fruit. Every last one.

Some trees are full of the fruit of faith, belief, even if it need be blind faith at first. But faith will give that person sight, as they walk by the light of Christ Jesus our Lord and Pachal Lamb.

Zecryphon said:

Since when does the gender of your lover become the basis of your lifestyle? Just what is the "homosexual lifestyle"? Does it mean that you go to more fabulous places than heterosexual people do? Ya know, like art galleries and the theatre?

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It means your conscience has been seared as with a hot iron, thats what it means. It is a sin. If someone were committed to a lifestyle of hate, or murder, or robbery, or greed, they would be committing themselves to a lifestyle of sin, which, frankly, is not a lifestyle but a deathstyle.

As we have learned of Christ, so should we walk in him. Jesus never masturbated, and he wasn't gay. We too should avoid the lusts of the flesh like the plague. Put away your preferences and worship the Lord your God.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

davedjy said:

Perhaps a better question...if these were gay people, why would Lot even bother to offer up his daughters to them to start?

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Where could Lot have learned of gay people being the natural course of things if he regarded the act as wickedness? He appeared to see only their intention and desire for having sex with men.

Lot adressed what he saw as wickedness as was expressed in their desire to have sex with the men didnt he?

Lot apparently offered them a way out of doing what he considered wicked in their expressed intentions of having sex with the men.

Another spoke of this pertaining only to a "gang sex thing" in regards to this. If that were so, why would Lot offer his daughters in exchange for the men they had intended to have sex with?

I was running off that thought that appeared to use it as a justification for it.

walloffire said:

The life of a homosexual person is different also in that they have committed themselves to sin, given themselves over to iniquity, and that affects more than just your sexuality. It affects how God blesses you.

For instance, if you are committed to being a bank robber for the rest of your life, surely eternal life does not abide in you. If you are committed to being a mass murderer as a hobby, then surely the love of God and the life of God, who is love, does not dwell in you. Every tree is known by its fruit. Every last one.

Some trees are full of the fruit of faith, belief, even if it need be blind faith at first. But faith will give that person sight, as they walk by the light of Christ Jesus our Lord and Pachal Lamb.

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"The life of a homosexual person is different also in that they have committed themselves to sin, given themselves over to iniquity, and that affects more than just your sexuality. It affects how God blesses you."

Well they can't have committed themselves knowingly to sin, if they don't know that their behavior is sinful. The churches that proclaim homosexuality as a sin are dwindling in number. This message is being heard less and less, because any time it is preached, the church is called intolerant and in some cases sued. I don't think the homosexuals give themselves over to this iniquity, I think God does that, the same way he hardened the heart of Pharoah. Now, are you suggesting that God will bless you based upon your works? Like if you do this, God will give you that? That's Word-Faith teaching isn't it? Also, doesn't it then follow logically that if you sin, God will punish you with something like a disease or other malady because you sinned against Him? Like you got Cancer because you cheated on your wife?

"For instance, if you are committed to being a bank robber for the rest of your life, surely eternal life does not abide in you. If you are committed to being a mass murderer as a hobby, then surely the love of God and the life of God, who is love, does not dwell in you. Every tree is known by its fruit. Every last one."

So based upon a person's actions you can and apparently will declare whether or not they are saved? That is something we can not do, because it puts us in the position of judging another person's eternal salvation or standing with God. Only God knows if the person is truly saved or not. I think what you're suggesting leads to a slippery slope of judgment of others based upon what you personally think is behavior becoming a Christian. We have to be very careful in this area. We can strongly suspect, but I think that's as far as it goes. I don't think we can ever say, 'you are not saved because...'

walloffire said:

It means your conscience has been seared as with a hot iron, thats what it means. It is a sin. If someone were committed to a lifestyle of hate, or murder, or robbery, or greed, they would be committing themselves to a lifestyle of sin, which, frankly, is not a lifestyle but a deathstyle.

As we have learned of Christ, so should we walk in him. Jesus never masturbated, and he wasn't gay. We too should avoid the lusts of the flesh like the plague. Put away your preferences and worship the Lord your God.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

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"It means your conscience has been seared as with a hot iron, thats what it means."

Really? Ya know that's funny, because it was the gay community that started circulating this term.

"It is a sin. If someone were committed to a lifestyle of hate, or murder, or robbery, or greed, they would be committing themselves to a lifestyle of sin, which, frankly, is not a lifestyle but a deathstyle."

Well, that deathstyle you just described is how every person lives before they come to Christ.

"As we have learned of Christ, so should we walk in him. Jesus never masturbated, and he wasn't gay. We too should avoid the lusts of the flesh like the plague. Put away your preferences and worship the Lord your God."

If I asked you for scriptural support for any of your statements above, particularly the masturbation and Jesus not being gay statements, do you think you could find some? Jesus wasn't married either, but does that mean He was against marriage? An argument from silence is not a good argument to make.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

walloffire said:

God forbids the action AND the passion. Lust is conceived in one's heart. Just like with murder, it is the thought of hate itself that is murdering someone in your heart. So too the act and thought of homosexual lust. When God made Adam, there were no other human beings, thus there was no such thing as sex, or heterosexuality, or homosexuality, until after Eve was made, There were no other males. When the first other male did appear, it was Adam's son. That would not only have been homosexuality, but incest as well. The fact of the matter is that all homosexuality is a total abomination to the Lord God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward unto every man according to his works.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Click to expand...

"God forbids the action AND the passion. Lust is conceived in one's heart. Just like with murder, it is the thought of hate itself that is murdering someone in your heart. So too the act and thought of homosexual lust. When God made Adam, there were no other human beings, thus there was no such thing as sex, or heterosexuality, or homosexuality, until after Eve was made, There were no other males. When the first other male did appear, it was Adam's son. That would not only have been homosexuality, but incest as well. The fact of the matter is that all homosexuality is a total abomination to the Lord God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will reward unto every man according to his works."

I agree.

Quote:
from Zecryphon:
It's wonderful that they're in church and learning about God. I don't think that's the problem.
"...and that the argument to tolerate the lifestyle to the point of including them in the pulpit is wrong."

I don't understand what you're saying here. I have not advocated tolerating the lifestyle to the point of letting them preach from the pulpit. I'm glad that there are gay people attending the Presbyterian church because that is one church that still denounces homosexuality as a sin. A person who is called to the office of pastor is to be beyond reproach in the areas of sinful living. A church can very well dictate who steps into that pulpit to preach and who doesn't. Churches have been denying women that privilege for centuries. The same can be done here. Any pastor that lives a life that has obvious sexual sin in it should not be preaching, because his way of life is considered sinful by God. Churches where the membership votes and decides on their pastors can control this. Churches that don't vote on their pastors can't. As far as I know the Presbyterian church still uses the voting system and can write it's church laws in such a way as to exclude homosexuals from ever preaching.

This thread reminds me of an incident not that long ago in the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America).

http://www.stjohnsatlanta.org/trialupdate.html