Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

That "ask God when you die" is such a tired, lame coput.

As for the rest... when the genes that express as homosexual tendency are identified, that doesn't mean they are some sort of "defective" gene... indeed, I'd say thatr the fact that homosexuality is observed in all higher mammals, that such genetics is quite ancient, and extremely natural.

Corrupt genes tend not to code for anything at all. Genes that code for an identifiable trait... well... aren't corrupt.

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
So? Are you saying that only things the Bible specifically mentions are appropriate, and its wrong to extrapolate the same principals into situations the Bible doesn't adequately cover?I more or less agree...

But look, lets cut the semantics, what do you think "sin" is, exactly?

For me, sin is an action that God has told us to refrain from because it will harm us or others, or disrespects Him.

Thats it. Thats all I think sin is... and Jesus new commandment is what I base this on.

I don't think sin is about a bunch of arbitrary rules made up by God to be legalistically invoked to the detriment of people... the rulkes are meant to HELP us... not HURT us... why are you so keen to hurt people?

Sure you can apply biblical principles to things not explicitly addressed in Scripture. The Bible doesn't talk about cars or the internet but they have some spplicable principles. However, we need to apply them rightly, and as for the topic at hand, homosexual acts are sin. The bible is clear on that even if you don't like it or you don't recognize it.

The fact is, while we do have much freedom under the new covenant we do still have some rules and they are for our benefit...not because God is a cosmic kill joy..quite the opposite, He wants a far better joy for us than temporary happiness.

Zecryphon · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
I pointed out the passages that speak about David and Jonathon's sexuality.

Want me to do it again?

As for Adam and Eve, I'm not saying they WERE homosexual, just that... no... wait... check that... this far and no further... if we believe in a literal Adam and Eve, with their inbred incestuous children and all, then one of them, at least WAS homosexual. Absolutely definately. Without doiubt, at least ONE of them had to be carrying the genes that express as homosexual traits.

Take your pick. Adam and Eve are not real historical people, OR either or both of them was at least carrying a recessive "gay gene". If there is a third alternative, please enlighten me, but I just don't see it.

"Take your pick. Adam and Eve are not real historical people, OR either or both of them was at least carrying a recessive "gay gene". If there is a third alternative, please enlighten me, but I just don't see it."

A gay gene that no one has been able to isolate. Until you have that, you don't have any support for your case that either of them was gay or carrying a recessive gay gene.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

Many social customs of that time are mentioned in the Bible. The washing of feet is one. Because Jesus washed the feet of His disciples, does that mean Jesus had a foot fetish? No.

But was his doing it unexpected or unusual? Yes. Hence the mention.

Some reason my cut and paste won't work for the rest of your post... but about teenagers... you find me just one heterosexual teenage male who isn't extremely interested in girls, even over the love of his best friend, and I'll eat my hat.

I have read Samuel, I believe in context.

I sincerely believe that the relationship discussed, if not overtly homoerotic, certainly has homosexual undertones. Reading it in context.

Further, as a thought experiment for yourself, don't have to tell anyone the outcome, if you read the above description about anyone elses relationships... the parental disaproval, the sneaking around, the kissing, the love greater than for women, all of that... outside of a Biblical context and about non Biblical charecters... would you assume that it was homosexual or heterosexual people being described?

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
That "ask God when you die" is such a tired, lame coput.

As for the rest... when the genes that express as homosexual tendency are identified, that doesn't mean they are some sort of "defective" gene... indeed, I'd say thatr the fact that homosexuality is observed in all higher mammals, that such genetics is quite ancient, and extremely natural.

Corrupt genes tend not to code for anything at all. Genes that code for an identifiable trait... well... aren't corrupt.

Wild animals eat there meat raw, does that mean I should too? Even when I know it places me at risk for disease?

Remember, animals aren't sinners as we are and they aren't called to repentence as we are.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

No... the Bible ISN'T clear on it at all... as discussed, all the oft quted passages in the Bible are

A. irrelevant (Leviticus)
B. The writings of 1 guy (Paul)
C. Believably translated in ways OTHER than as pertaining to homosexuality
D. Without basis in reality... I mean, I can construct a logical arguement why rape and murder are bad things without resorting to Bible quotes, can you do the same for homosexuality?

How is homosexuality likely to impair my atainment of true joy?

Zecryphon · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
That "ask God when you die" is such a tired, lame coput.

As for the rest... when the genes that express as homosexual tendency are identified, that doesn't mean they are some sort of "defective" gene... indeed, I'd say thatr the fact that homosexuality is observed in all higher mammals, that such genetics is quite ancient, and extremely natural.

Corrupt genes tend not to code for anything at all. Genes that code for an identifiable trait... well... aren't corrupt.

"That "ask God when you die" is such a tired, lame coput."

Oh please it's no more lame than what your offering up as evidence of homosexual relationships in the Bible. Suddenly Adam and Eve, one of them HAD to be gay and David and Jonathan are gay. You've got no proof for either.

"As for the rest... when the genes that express as homosexual tendency are identified, that doesn't mean they are some sort of "defective" gene... indeed, I'd say thatr the fact that homosexuality is observed in all higher mammals, that such genetics is quite ancient, and extremely natural."

Higher mammal? Such as? Are you saying that you're basically no better than an animal? This is what you're telling us? God created us special, we are different from animals and have dominion over them. We are not to take our cues from animals as to proper sexual conduct.

"Corrupt genes tend not to code for anything at all. Genes that code for an identifiable trait... well... aren't corrupt."

Get the gay gene first, and then examine it to see if it is indeed corrupt or not. Then proceed from there. Right now, this gay gene thing isn't really anything, except an idea or a dream.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

red herring... we are discussing the naturalness or otherwise of the act... nothing more, nothing less.

Zecryphon · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
But was his doing it unexpected or unusual? Yes. Hence the mention.

Some reason my cut and paste won't work for the rest of your post... but about teenagers... you find me just one heterosexual teenage male who isn't extremely interested in girls, even over the love of his best friend, and I'll eat my hat.

I have read Samuel, I believe in context.

I sincerely believe that the relationship discussed, if not overtly homoerotic, certainly has homosexual undertones. Reading it in context.

Further, as a thought experiment for yourself, don't have to tell anyone the outcome, if you read the above description about anyone elses relationships... the parental disaproval, the sneaking around, the kissing, the love greater than for women, all of that... outside of a Biblical context and about non Biblical charecters... would you assume that it was homosexual or heterosexual people being described?

"Further, as a thought experiment for yourself, don't have to tell anyone the outcome, if you read the above description about anyone elses relationships... the parental disaproval, the sneaking around, the kissing, the love greater than for women, all of that... outside of a Biblical context and about non Biblical charecters... would you assume that it was homosexual or heterosexual people being described?"

I would have to know the time period in question. What you're doing is viewing those behaviors from today's point of view. You have to look at the situation as a person living in that time would have looked at it. You can't take your present day understanding and apply it to the scriptures. That's just bad hermeneutics.

Zecryphon · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
red herring... we are discussing the naturalness or otherwise of the act... nothing more, nothing less.

You brought up the gay gene.

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
No... the Bible ISN'T clear on it at all... as discussed, all the oft quted passages in the Bible are

A. irrelevant (Leviticus)
B. The writings of 1 guy (Paul)
C. Believably translated in ways OTHER than as pertaining to homosexuality
D. Without basis in reality... I mean, I can construct a logical arguement why rape and murder are bad things without resorting to Bible quotes, can you do the same for homosexuality?

How is homosexuality likely to impair my atainment of true joy?

A, B, and C are typical arguments that we have all used to justify ourselves. They don't fly.

D. The Bible says the Law is written on our hearts, we have a conscience and feel guilt. We know were wrong. The same holds to any sin, as much as it does to sexual sin...whether gay or straight.

In the end the joy we find in Christ and that we'll find in paradise is far beyond what we think of as joy and all sin gets in the way of that.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

one of them had to be gay if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve... whence else diod the genetic component of homosexuality come from?

God created us using the same template as he did for animals, and our behaviour, biochemistry, psychology and sociology are all deeply coloured by our animal forebears. While I do certainly belief that God calls us to overcome our animal nature in many ways, I do not believe he asks us to do anything that is explicitly against our natures.

So if any trait occurs naturally in animals, I see no reason why the same trait isn't reasonably to be expected in humans.

Actually the "gay gene thing" as you so eloquently put it, is far more than just a dream, there is enough evidence extant to demonstrate a link between heredity and homosexuality, all that is required now is to isolate the specific codons involved and map their protein expression... but thats really only so much technicality... for all practical intents and purposes, quantitative studies have pretty much confirmed there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Want links?

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

interesting, given that so much energy is spent telling me that "God's word never changes, is unchangeing and appropriate for all time"... but I digress.

I freey admit I read the Bible through the eyes of someone brought up in the late 20th century and living in the early 21st... but then, how else would you expect me to read it?

I take it, from your tapdancing response, that you conducted said thought experiment and were somewhat confronted by the results?

Good for you. Sincerely. Now if you'd only quit with the dissembling...

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

There is no proof of a gay gene.

And Zec wasn't tapdancing, he was clarifying the standards of your little experiment. Personally I looked at it from the time of David and Jonathon and given there culture and society, I'd stick with heterosexual.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

A. so Leviticus IS relevant? That whole "new covenant thing" didn't get much press at your place? What about the rest of Leviticus? You eat shellfish? You wear underpants with elastic?
B. You prove to me that Paul wrote with the authority of God and I'll conceed the point.
C. So... WHY don't the alternate translations fly? You are aware its not just the evil gay agenda promoting them, don't you? There is controvetrsy dating back to the 5th century regarding the appropriate translation of the term... Martin Luther, for instance, thought it refered to masturbators

D. Great. My consciounce is clear. If I killed, stole, or raped someone, I'm pretty sure my conscience would play up on me.

It doesn't when I make love to my partner.

So I guess thats it then... no sin there. Hooray!

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

Again... in science, there is no PROOF of anything, only EVIDENCE... and there is lots of EVIDENCE for a genetic component to homosexuality... you want links to non biased journal articles, or what?

and to the second, ok, lets flip the coin then... in Biblical terms, contemporary with Jonathon and David... what WOULD you expect to see in a description of a covert, scandalous homosexual love affair between two figures the author wishes to maintain the integrity of?

Zecryphon · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
one of them had to be gay if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve... whence else diod the genetic component of homosexuality come from?

God created us using the same template as he did for animals, and our behaviour, biochemistry, psychology and sociology are all deeply coloured by our animal forebears. While I do certainly belief that God calls us to overcome our animal nature in many ways, I do not believe he asks us to do anything that is explicitly against our natures.

So if any trait occurs naturally in animals, I see no reason why the same trait isn't reasonably to be expected in humans.

Actually the "gay gene thing" as you so eloquently put it, is far more than just a dream, there is enough evidence extant to demonstrate a link between heredity and homosexuality, all that is required now is to isolate the specific codons involved and map their protein expression... but thats really only so much technicality... for all practical intents and purposes, quantitative studies have pretty much confirmed there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Want links?

"one of them had to be gay if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve... whence else diod the genetic component of homosexuality come from?"

There has been no genetic component of homosexuality identified. If you don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve then forget homosexuality, where did original sin come from. Remove a literal Adam and Eve and your problems would really go away. There could be no original sin, therefore you would not need a savior, because you would not inherit the sinful nature from your parents, Adam and Eve, and would not be able to sin. You would still be perfect. We all know that isn't the case though.

"God created us using the same template as he did for animals,"

Scriptures please.

"and our behaviour, biochemistry, psychology and sociology are all deeply coloured by our animal forebears."

Are you saying you are a descendant of an animal and not a special creation of God?

"While I do certainly belief that God calls us to overcome our animal nature in many ways, I do not believe he asks us to do anything that is explicitly against our natures."

The Bible is full of examples of things He asks us to do that are against our sinful natures.

"So if any trait occurs naturally in animals, I see no reason why the same trait isn't reasonably to be expected in humans."

That's because you don't believe humans are a special creation of God.

"Actually the "gay gene thing" as you so eloquently put it, is far more than just a dream, there is enough evidence extant to demonstrate a link between heredity and homosexuality, all that is required now is to isolate the specific codons involved and map their protein expression... but thats really only so much technicality... for all practical intents and purposes, quantitative studies have pretty much confirmed there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Want links?"

I've seen them already. I've debated this before with someone who is transgendered and waiting to reassign his gender.

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

A. The entire Bible is relevant. How we apply it is different (me being a gentile in the NT Church and all) but the principles still apply. This is especially true when we see the same issues addressed in the NT with the same results.

B. I can't change your mind/heart on how you view the authority of Scripture, that is the Holy Spirits job. You regularaly reject any Scriptures I post anyways.

C. Study for yourself to show yourself approved (as the Bible directs) and do not just lean on others. Personally, I look to the orginal language and its definitions...but you generally reject that as well.

D. Moral relativism leads to destruction and chaos...even more so when we lie to ourselves, allow others to lie to us, or refuse to listen to His small still voice calling us to better things. We are all guilty of this and none are without excuse. Whether we admit it or not, we do know better.

EnemyPartyII · Oct 20, 2007

Zecryphon said:
"one of them had to be gay if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve... whence else diod the genetic component of homosexuality come from?"

There has been no genetic component of homosexuality identified. If you don't believe in a literal Adam and Eve then forget homosexuality, where did original sin come from. Remove a literal Adam and Eve and your problems would really go away. There could be no original sin, therefore you would not need a savior, because you would not inherit the sinful nature from your parents, Adam and Eve, and would not be able to sin. You would still be perfect. We all know that isn't the case though.

"God created us using the same template as he did for animals,"

Scriptures please.

"and our behaviour, biochemistry, psychology and sociology are all deeply coloured by our animal forebears."

Are you saying you are a descendant of an animal and not a special creation of God?

"While I do certainly belief that God calls us to overcome our animal nature in many ways, I do not believe he asks us to do anything that is explicitly against our natures."

The Bible is full of examples of things He asks us to do that are against our sinful natures.

"So if any trait occurs naturally in animals, I see no reason why the same trait isn't reasonably to be expected in humans."

That's because you don't believe humans are a special creation of God.

"Actually the "gay gene thing" as you so eloquently put it, is far more than just a dream, there is enough evidence extant to demonstrate a link between heredity and homosexuality, all that is required now is to isolate the specific codons involved and map their protein expression... but thats really only so much technicality... for all practical intents and purposes, quantitative studies have pretty much confirmed there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Want links?"

I've seen them already. I've debated this before with someone who is transgendered and waiting to reassign his gender.

"original sin" is nothing more than God calling us to overcome our baser animal natures... thts it. Much simpler than believing we are still paying for the mistakes of some guy who ate an apple 5,000 years ago!

Scriptures please? Sorry, this is one of those "I have the comparative biochemical analyses, so I win" type things... remember, God gave us both the Bible AND the scientific method/enquiring minds

I am both an animal AND a spoecial creation of God. As are you.

The Bible is full of examples where he asks us to overcome the sinful part of our nature, yes... but never to go inherently against our natures... subtle, but distinct difference. See what I mean?

I DO believe humans are a special creation of God. I also believe tht God allowed us to evolve from animals, so is therefore presumeabley happy for us to have some baggage from our evolutionary journey.
Only thing that makes sense really... unless you believe God designed the total stuff up that is the human eye...

So if you've seen the scientific, objective data that clearly shows the link between homosexuality and genetics, why are you questioning it?

mont974x4 · Oct 20, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
"original sin" is nothing more than God calling us to overcome our baser animal natures... thts it. Much simpler than believing we are still paying for the mistakes of some guy who ate an apple 5,000 years ago!

Scriptures please? Sorry, this is one of those "I have the comparative biochemical analyses, so I win" type things... remember, God gave us both the Bible AND the scientific method/enquiring minds

I am both an animal AND a spoecial creation of God. As are you.

The Bible is full of examples where he asks us to overcome the sinful part of our nature, yes... but never to go inherently against our natures... subtle, but distinct difference. See what I mean?

I DO believe humans are a special creation of God. I also believe tht God allowed us to evolve from animals, so is therefore presumeabley happy for us to have some baggage from our evolutionary journey.
Only thing that makes sense really... unless you believe God designed the total stuff up that is the human eye...

So if you've seen the scientific, objective data that clearly shows the link between homosexuality and genetics, why are you questioning it?

"original sin" referes to the eating of the fruit and the fall. We are told that sin entered the world through Adam and we are condemned since birth because of it. It's in Romans. We are, in fact, called to deny our very nature, for it is sinful and at odds with God.

When science contradicts Scripture it is fiction, not fact. Yest, we are to use our brain and test all things but the Bible is the standard.

There is no empirical proof of a gay gene. The debate rages on in the scientific community.

Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

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