Homosexuality - Here I stand.

[one11]

I don't doubt that there are many christians who love Homosexuals and feel that they are doing their best for them, to read scripture and make them understand that God will punish them.
Then there are those that use the bible to justify their disgust and prejudice.
I believe we are all Gods children and I also believe that marriage should be for hetrosexuals and homosexuals.I don't believe they will be punished.
You can have civil marriages, but what homosexual couples want is to have equal rights to each others lives and finances and they can't do that if they are not legally married. They want to have the same rights as married couples to be able to see their loved ones in hospital and have a legal say about their partners treatment. They want financial security to be able to have the same insurance rights and tax benefits that heterosexual couples have. Is that so hard to give to them?
I always believe you should walk in another persons shoes and imagine what it would be like if you as a hetrosexual couple were treated the same way a same gender couple were treated on above issues. You would be sad, frustrated and a little angry that you couldn't get married and show your love for one another.

If certain churches want to agree to marry same sex couples then shouldn't they be given the choice? I don't condone this to be enforced on every church, it should be the choice of the church to marry or not.

As christians we should show our love and let same sex couples get married in the secular society they live in and not force our religious beliefs on them. If certain churches want to go secular then it is for them to judge if they are doing the right thing not anyone else to impose their differing church doctrines.

It breaks my heart that those who have married in California my have their marriages overturned, it's not right IMO.

I agree that homosexual couples should have access to their loved ones and financial protection for the families, but they could have had that with same sex unions a long time ago if they had gone this route, and I think it would have been accomplished by now.

As far as California, there are variables to this, as California has domestic partnerships for one whereas other states have nothing. It's better to have something for the time being as a homosexual should say my children come first period, so protect them now, THEN continue with what you think is right.

As far as homosexual marriage in California not being "right" in that they may have their marriages overturned isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that politicians have been using gays to posture for votes for far too long when politicians cannot do anything because of the First Amendment of the United States which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof...

Marriage is a sacrament is many established Christian religions and in other established religions it is a "sacred thing" between man and women as well, and no president, nor the politicians nor these activist judges have any power to change the First Amendment. That's where the crime lies, using gays to posture for votes when these people have no power to change it for you. They just want your vote. Not to mention there is a huge exchange of money going on here while this drags on. So they want your vote and some want your money too.

 

[wayseer]

Are men created in the image of God or AREN'T they?

No we are not - no one knows God so no one knows what God might look like.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I agree that homosexual couples should have access to their loved ones and financial protection for the families, but they could have had that with same sex unions a long time ago if they had gone this route, and I think it would have been accomplished by now.

What you are proposing was tired…it was called segregation.

You might want to look up what the Supreme Court said about separate but equal

As far as California, there are variables to this, as California has domestic partnerships for one whereas other states have nothing. It's better to have something for the time being as a homosexual should say my children come first period, so protect them now, THEN continue with what you think is right.

As far as homosexual marriage in California not being "right" in that they may have their marriages overturned isn't exactly the problem. The problem is that politicians have been using gays to posture for votes for far too long when politicians cannot do anything because of the First Amendment of the United States which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof...

Marriage is a sacrament is many established Christian religions and in other established religions it is a "sacred thing" between man and women as well, and no president, nor the politicians nor these activist judges have any power to change the First Amendment. That's where the crime lies, using gays to posture for votes when these people have no power to change it for you. They just want your vote. Not to mention there is a huge exchange of money going on here while this drags on. So they want your vote and some want your money too.

Please explain how equal rights and equal protection under the law is an infringement on your rights at all.

Why should your right to be prejudiced trump the rights of minorities to have equal rights and equal protections?

 

[Zeena]

Are men created in the image of God or AREN'T they?

No we are not - no one knows God so no one knows what God might look like.

What do you do with Scripture?

Genesis 9:6 [AFTER Adam sinned, btw]
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Please see this article by a pastor of the best church I ever went to.
http://www.millersvillebiblechurch.org/_files/HomosexualityNoChoiceNoTolerance.pdf

Typical “hate and false witness is good when I do it” stuff

It shows that homosexuality is a choice, not a condition,

Except it doesn’t do that at all

and thus, gays are not a minority, because to be a minority you have to be so by something that is not your choice, such as race.

So Jews aren’t a minority.
After all the could have chosen to convert and give up their religion and culture and history and avoid that whole nazi holocaust thing.

 

[wayseer]

Wayseer, Point 1 is wrong.

.... and your reference is ...?

...the point of what true marriage ...

I am not making any point about marriage.

...you complain about one of Paul's writing being 80 years a.d. while you happily quote the apocrypha which is approx 280-300 a.d.

... and you miss the point I was making about Sodom - not about Paul. You collapse two independent paragraphs into one for you own benefit.

First a marriage never was a marriage

You're the one talking about marriage - I'm not. If you wish to talk about the sanctity of marriage - a worthy topic - you are welcome to start your own thread.

 

[wayseer]

What do you do with Scripture?

I use it as a guide - I don't treat it as an idol to worshiped.

 

[Zeena]

I use it as a guide - I don't treat it as an idol to worshiped.

How rude!

1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil;
6 rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth;
7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13 But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

From my experience things turn nasty when someone can no longer support their argument and rather than quietly drop out of sight for a while and do a bit of thinking and research, decide to respond by attacking the person.

 

[Jase]

How rude!

How is he being rude? Idolism of the Bible is in fact quite common among conservatives, even though they don't believe they are doing so. Putting a collection of books created by the Catholic Church at the same level as God is in fact idolism. One of the most common phrases stated on these forums by conservatives and fundamentalists is "The Bible is the Word of God". This is in fact wrong, it is not the Word of God, as there was no such thing as the "Bible" when scripture was written, and scripture tells us what the real Word of God is.

 

[wayseer]

How rude!

Interesting comment. In what way was I rude?

Paul made the distinction, not always clearly I admit, between godliness and self-worship. Using the Bible to support particular pet aversions is a form of self-worship and the Bible then becomes an idol for that worship.

Am I being a bit challenging?

 

[Sitswithamouse]

I don't believe that is going to occur according to the CA Attorney General. Of course it's not for lack of trying by the forces which want that to happen.

I pray that it doesn't happen TL.

 

[Zeena]

Interesting comment. In what way was I rude?

Not only did you dismiss Scripture as secondary to your own personal revealation, but you dismissed me as being in error.

Personal revelation is to be given to the Lord and compared with Scripture until you can be sure that He is the one speaking it, and not the devil or his demons, imitating Him.

This is my experience. When the Lord reveals something to me, I give it back to Him and ask if it is His and ask Him to point me to revelation already revealed in Scripture, so that I can receive it back wholeheartedly.

The 'Revelation of Jesus Christ' [Book of Revelations] is not something new, but it is built upon the foundation of the Prophecies in the OT.

It's not two books, but One!

The reason the NT books we have are included as Scripture is because they specifically referrance what was already known, but in new light, as the Spirit of God gives [is] Light!

Paul made the distinction, not always clearly I admit, between godliness and self-worship.

Do you now accuse me of sin?

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

And this based upon quoting one verse of Scripture in order to refute the teaching you espoused?

Jesus is my LIFE, and I SUBMIT to Him as such!

John 8:49
Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

I do not look to myself in response to your post, but I look to Jesus!

Why should rudeness be the mark of a Christian?
Why should the Ministry be blamed on account of your personal enlighenment?

And WHY should the Lord be subject to what you have perceived as true?

He has given us His word for just this cause!

Using the Bible to support particular pet aversions is a form of self-worship and the Bible then becomes an idol for that worship.

Do I not HAVE a Ministry in the Lord? Or is this only reserved for men?
Do I not have something to offer the Body of Christ? Or is this only reserved for those who are without sin?

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Or, because of your perceptions am I now to be a cast-away, holding nothing in the way of enlightenment myself?
No share in Christ at your say-so?

My 'pet aversion' is none other than the Ministry the Lord has given me to accomplish, that He may be Glorified! And this I do wholeheartedly, yet not I but Christ in me.

I believe Scripture to be the word of God. I believe it is of Divine Authority and Divinely Inspired as to the subjugation of it's readers. I do not hold Scripture as being Supreme, for there is One Supreme, even God, WHO HAS WROTE THE BIBLE as a refferance guide for us.

1. The question of the inspiration of the Bible, is one of the highest importance to the church and to the world,
2. The necessities of the Church plainly demand an authoritative, and unerring standard, to which they can appeal in all matters of faith and practice.
3. Those who have called in question the plenary inspiration of the Bible, have, sooner or later, frittered away nearly all that is essential to the christian religion.
4. Our faith in the divine inspiration of the Bible is so abundantly supported by evidence, that every christian should be able to give a reason for his confidence in its inspiration.


http://www.gospeltruth.net/1840skeletons/sk_lecture07.htm

[SIZE=-1]This file is CERTIFIED BY GOSPEL TRUTH MINISTRIES TO BE CONFORMED TO THE ORIGINAL TEXT. For authenticity verification, its contents can be compared to the original file at [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.GospelTruth.net[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] or by contacting Gospel Truth P.O. Box 6322, Orange, CA 92863. (C)2000. This file is not to be changed in any way, nor to be sld, nor this seal to be removed.[/SIZE]

Am I being a bit challenging?

No, just rude; In that you are being puffed up against Scripture, the word of God given us for our exhortation and edification, and my person.

 

[Zeena]

Talk about off-topic!
But you made me do it!

2 Corinthians 11:12
But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

 

[OllieFranz]

Not only did you dismiss Scripture as secondary to your own personal revealation, but you dismissed me as being in error.

.

He did not dismiss Scripture or you. He was answering the question you asked honestly. For him, Scripture is a guide to life, not an idol to be worshiped. There was no disrespect to Scripture intended, and no disrespect to either God or to you at all.

If you are going to take any answer to your direct questions other than "Yes, I see your point. You are 100% correct." as a personal insult, perhaps you should, for your own well being, avoid CP&E and E&M altogether.

 

[Zeena]

He did not dismiss Scripture or you. He was answering the question you asked honestly. For him, Scripture is a guide to life, not an idol to be worshiped. There was no disrespect to Scripture intended, and no disrespect to either God or to you at all.

If you are going to take any answer to your direct questions other than "Yes, I see your point. You are 100% correct." as a personal insult, perhaps you should, for your own well being, avoid CP&E and E&M altogether.

If this is true Wayseer, please accept my appology for misconstruding your speach and for saying you were being rude.

 

[Zeena]

n/t

 

[Dogbean]

No offence to your pastor but thats just an opinion.
I never made a choice on my sexuality, I just am attracted to girls, never guys. Its just the way it always has been for me.

Your choice is whether to act on that attraction or not. Satan deceives many of us into thinking that what we do is ok when it is really not. That's why he is called the father of lies. He plants doubt in our minds, just like when he told Adam and Eve that God really wouldn't be mad if they ate the apple.

 

[wayseer]

If this is true Wayseer, please accept my appology for misconstruding your speach and for saying you were being rude.

Thank you - I humbly accept - but I accept responsibility for my part - I am rather confronting - so I can accept some flack.

Can I back up a bit?

Zeena

Are men created in the image of God or AREN'T they?

Wayseer

No we are not - no one knows God so no one knows what God might look like.

It is easy to accept scripture without thinking too much about what it means. This is the fault of the Church over the ensuing millennia - we were told what to think.

As no one knows what God may look like we can only guess. If there is an 'image' perhaps that image has more to do with 'how' we think of God. Jesus used parables, narratives and stories to get his message across, most of which ended up with Jesus saying something along the lines, "Do you hear what I am saying'? - in other words, did we 'get' the message.

The stories in the Bible are similar - do we 'get' the message? The Bible is not that message - God is the message - the Bible merely points in the direction of God. The finger point at the moon is not the moon - yet there are many who cannot look any further than the finger. There are many who quote acres of scripture but who fail to 'get' the message.

So, No Zeena, you are not in error. What I am urging you to consider is look a little further - to imagine what Jesus really meant when he said 'Thy Kingdom come'. Dare we image that?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Your choice is whether to act on that attraction or not. Satan deceives many of us into thinking that what we do is ok when it is really not. That's why he is called the father of lies. He plants doubt in our minds, just like when he told Adam and Eve that God really wouldn't be mad if they ate the apple.

Racists make the same point when arguing for discrimination based on skin color. Racists claim that they do not hate anyone because of how God made them rather they hate that blacks choose to defy God and act as social equals to whites. Racists have no problem with blacks who “choose” to stay in their place

 

[one11]

Racists make the same point when arguing for discrimination based on skin color. Racists claim that they do not hate anyone because of how God made them rather they hate that blacks choose to defy God and act as social equals to whites. Racists have no problem with blacks who “choose” to stay in their place

That's a little over top. That's like saying you believe the church is only for the white man, not to mention it's an apples to oranges comparison which I see no comparison.

Skin color and sexual activities or preferences are two quite different things.

I can't just stand before the church and say I want 14 husbands at the same time because I love them all and you can't discriminate against me.