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Homosexuality - Here I stand.

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LightHorseman

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I was relating my posts to this one, regarding Sodom, and showing you Jude.

Do you understand? If not, we've crossed understandings here.

I was relating that the Hebrew words regarding Sodom existed long before the 500-600 a.d. as quoted in the church of the wikipedia.
*rubbing forhead* I understand that Sodom, as a hewbrew word, refering to the town, and to people who are generally bad, existed for a long time. My question to you is, and what I'm asking you to demonstrate, is there any example you can show me of the Hebrew word Sodom being used explicitly in relation to homosexuality? The passage from Jude doesn't appear to mention homosexuality, so I'm not sure why your citing it.
 
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one11

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*rubbing forhead* I understand that Sodom, as a hewbrew word, refering to the town, and to people who are generally bad, existed for a long time. My question to you is, and what I'm asking you to demonstrate, is there any example you can show me of the Hebrew word Sodom being used explicitly in relation to homosexuality? The passage from Jude doesn't appear to mention homosexuality, so I'm not sure why your citing it.

We completely crossed wires here. I thought you said the word s'dom (sodomy or Sodom) did not exist before the 9th Century. That's my fault for not quoting each post.

As far as the OT, I did study the Hebrew, it (homosexuality) was basically translated as to make a "manbed" to lie with one as one lies with a woman. I can't quite remember all my other studies at this time. If they come to me, I'll let you know, but I'd like to move on to some other things right now.
 
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LightHorseman

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We completely crossed wires here. I thought you said the word s'dom (sodomy or Sodom) did not exist before the 9th Century. That's my fault for not quoting each post.

As far as the OT, I did study the Hebrew, it (homosexuality) was basically translated as to make a "manbed" to lie with one as one lies with a woman. I can't quite remember all my other studies at this time. If they come to me, I'll let you know, but I'd like to move on to some other things right now.
OK, well its easy to misread stuff in long threads, so no worries, and thanks for clearing it up.

Yes, Sodomy is an Ancient Hebrew word refering to the town Sodom and to generally bad people. Sodom-y did not come to be associated with homosexuality specifically until the 6th Century.

OK, we can move on to something else if you like. After you... :)
 
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Polycarp1

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Okay, the people of Sodom are said in Jude to have engaged in sexual immorality and perversion" (NIV) or "fornication and chasing after strange flesh" (heteros sarx)" (KJV). This does not equate to homosexuality -- and the sole example of quasi-homosexual conduct we have regarding Sodom in Scripture is the intent to commit gang rape on angels appearing as young men. If you care to say that God disapproves of the gang rape of angels, I doubt there's a believer here who would disagree. If you say that this proves that the sin for which Sodom was condemned is homosexuality, you fly in the face of Scripture (Ezekiel 16, notably, and other examples including our Lord's own words regarding the lakeshore cities of Galilee). There is an enormous difference between (a) forcible rape, (b) promiscuous casual sex (porneia), and (c) consensual sex in a committed relationship. You may disapprove of all three unless (c) falls within a marriage of which you approve, but you must concede that they are three different offenses against God and man -- if (c) even is an offense.
 
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david_x

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Okay, the people of Sodom are said in Jude to have engaged in sexual immorality and perversion" (NIV) or "fornication and chasing after strange flesh" (heteros sarx)" (KJV). This does not equate to homosexuality -- and the sole example of quasi-homosexual conduct we have regarding Sodom in Scripture is the intent to commit gang rape on angels appearing as young men. If you care to say that God disapproves of the gang rape of angels, I doubt there's a believer here who would disagree. If you say that this proves that the sin for which Sodom was condemned is homosexuality, you fly in the face of Scripture (Ezekiel 16, notably, and other examples including our Lord's own words regarding the lakeshore cities of Galilee). There is an enormous difference between (a) forcible rape, (b) promiscuous casual sex (porneia), and (c) consensual sex in a committed relationship. You may disapprove of all three unless (c) falls within a marriage of which you approve, but you must concede that they are three different offenses against God and man -- if (c) even is an offense.

I would say that two people can never have a committed relationship. That is to say that unless God is part of a relationship human nature will eventually break it apart.
 
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LightHorseman

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I would say that two people can never have a committed relationship. That is to say that unless God is part of a relationship human nature will eventually break it apart.
What an outrageously false assertion.

If it were remotely true only Christians would be capable of having life long committed relationships. Since we see committed life long relationships across all belief spectrums, this is shown to be an utterly spurious claim.
 
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one11

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What an outrageously false assertion.

If it were remotely true only Christians would be capable of having life long committed relationships. Since we see committed life long relationships across all belief spectrums, this is shown to be an utterly spurious claim.

It's not that outrageous. I think a lot of people see so many broken relationships from the past 30 years or so. It's over 60% divorce rate in a lot of Western cultures. Whereas, Eastern cultures have a lot less, but then in Eastern cultures marriage is a pre-arranged covenant that the parents decide on. Love in Eastern cultures isn't the same thing in Western culture. I know a lot of the young generation in Japan and China have embraced some Western culture (they love American and U.K. music for example and the clothes) but when it comes down to it, I think those young adults in Japan and China still turn to their parents wishes when it comes to coupling.

Also, there was a study in Norway, after allowing gay marriage, that heterosexual marriage has declined greatly and that family values in Norway after homosexual marriage became legal are also not highly regarded in that generation. It's like the heterosexual couples just don't care for marriage any more or see a need, and I can understand that to a point.

I don't see how homosexual marriage will strengthen family values in young people in Western culture.

I don't know if some heterosexuals are secretly rebelling against marriage in Norway now, or if it's just that they don't care anymore or see the point. They've just become numb to the idea of marriage as a need at all.
 
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LightHorseman

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It's not that outrageous. I think a lot of people see so many broken relationships from the past 30 years or so. It's over 60% divorce rate in a lot of Western cultures. Whereas, Eastern cultures have a lot less, but then in Eastern cultures marriage is a pre-arranged covenant that the parents decide on. Love in Eastern cultures isn't the same thing in Western culture. I know a lot of the young generation in Japan and China have embraced some Western culture (they love American and U.K. music for example and the clothes) but when it comes down to it, I think those young adults in Japan and China still turn to their parents wishes when it comes to coupling.

Also, there was a study in Norway, after allowing gay marriage, that heterosexual marriage has declined greatly and that family values in Norway after homosexual marriage became legal are also not highly regarded in that generation. It's like the heterosexual couples just don't care for marriage any more or see a need, and I can understand that to a point.

I don't see how homosexual marriage will strengthen family values in young people in Western culture.

I don't know if some heterosexuals are secretly rebelling against marriage in Norway now, or if it's just that they don't care anymore or see the point. They've just become numb to the idea of marriage as a need at all.
You are doing tht thing where I say something, then you quote it and act as if I said something utterly different.

David X suggested that only Christians can have a committed relationship. The fact that there are Hindus, Budhists, Muslims, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Papua New Guinea tribesmen, atheists and pagans who have committed relationships proves that David's claim is false.

OK?
 
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one11

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You are doing tht thing where I say something, then you quote it and act as if I said something utterly different.

David X suggested that only Christians can have a committed relationship. The fact that there are Hindus, Budhists, Muslims, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Papua New Guinea tribesmen, atheists and pagans who have committed relationships proves that David's claim is false.

OK?

A lot of those are pre-arranged, except for atheists and pagans.

Most African tribal people, it's prearranged, too.

Also, if I quote a post, I may be making a point only about some of the post, but the rest of my post is a generalized statement, and in that instance it was related to the romanticized notion of "love" in Western culture.

I know gays who've had as many break-ups as heterosexuals.
 
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LightHorseman

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A lot of those are pre-arranged, except for atheists and pagans.

Most African tribal people, it's prearranged, too.

Also, if I quote a post, I may be making a point only about some of the post, but the rest of my post is a generalized statement, and in that instance it was related to the romanticized notion of "love" in Western culture.

I know gays who've had as many break-ups as heterosexuals.
So what if they're pre-aranged? So what if they're gay? The entirety of my point was that Christians are not the only people who can have committed relationships.

Nothing more, nothing less.
 
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one11

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So what if they're pre-aranged? So what if they're gay? The entirety of my point was that Christians are not the only people who can have committed relationships.

Nothing more, nothing less.

So what if marriages are prearranged? Well, they marry for the sake of "like" the person more so than the romanticized "love" the person. In all relationships, that "in love" FEELING will fade.

I'm just saying you can't compare Eastern cultures to Western cultures.

Now in Western culture, marriage is losing a lot of it's meaning. I mean why not polygamy too? Or why marry at all? At my age, I can't have kids, so why should I even get married at all? Even you said LH in the Intimacy thread you see no point for the piece of paper.

The studies in Norway stand, however. Heterosexual marriages are on the decline and young people don't see any point in marrying anymore.

Our Western family culture is totally falling apart.
 
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LightHorseman

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So what if marriages are prearranged? Well, they marry for the sake of "like" the person more so than the romanticized "love" the person. In all relationships, that "in love" FEELING will fade.

I'm just saying you can't compare Eastern cultures to Western cultures.

Now in Western culture, marriage is losing a lot of it's meaning. I mean why not polygamy too? Or why marry at all? At my age, I can't have kids, so why should I even get married at all? Even you said LH in the Intimacy thread you see no point for the piece of paper.

The studies in Norway stand, however. Heterosexual marriages are on the decline and young people don't see any point in marrying anymore.

Our Western family culture is totally falling apart.
None of which is relevant to the point that non Christians can have commited relationships.
 
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one11

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None of which is relevant to the point that non Christians can have commited relationships.

Some do and some don't. However, I can still make my points without needing to attach to your points. It's a free board, hun.

In regards to Western culture most people don't know that in love feeling WILL fade. When it fades they get restless and break up rather than knowing it's normal for all couples to lose that "in love" feeling. Whereas, in Eastern culture that happens far less often because they have married for the sake of "like" and they don't have romanticized notions about "love".
 
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UnderHisWings1979

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I always think of love as a choice. I told my wife when we got married, "I am making the choice to love you for the rest of our lives, even when I don't feel like it." I think that's what we have lost in western culture. Love is not a feeling, it is the choice to place someone above yourself.
 
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one11

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I always think of love as a choice. I told my wife when we got married, "I am making the choice to love you for the rest of our lives, even when I don't feel like it." I think that's what we have lost in western culture. Love is not a feeling, it is the choice to place someone above yourself.

Exactly. M.Scott Peck wrote about that in his book "The Road Less Traveled". M. Scott Peck even in his findings wrote that the beginning of real love IS falling out of love. Therefore, one decides to love by choice not a feeling.
 
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Polycarp1

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Some do and some don't. However, I can still make my points without needing to attach to your points. It's a free board, hun.

In regards to Western culture most people don't know that in love feeling WILL fade. When it fades they get restless and break up rather than knowing it's normal for all couples to lose that "in love" feeling. Whereas, in Eastern culture that happens far less often because they have married for the sake of "like" and they don't have romanticized notions about "love".

Your point, however, is wrong. Not that there isn't an element of accuracy to it -- I know that, although my wife and I remain deeply loving and committed after almost 34 years of marriage and just scant of 50 years of friendship/courtship/wedlock in total, we have had a few tough times in the relationship, and knowing God's strength and guidance helped us through them.

However, in point of fact, it is a matter of individual character whether commitment is honored or not -- not a question of religious belief, though that may enter into it. Some believers cheat, or mistake the dying down of infatution and lust for 'falling out of love'. Some non-believers have the moral character and capacity for solid long-term love that keeps them together through thick and thin.

I am going to bend a personal rule of my own and point at Ted Haggard, not as an object of ridicule or example of hypocrisy, but as someone deserving of compassion. As we all know by now, he belonged to, in fact led, a church whose doctrinal approach included the 'homosexuality is a choice' canard. And, looking at his behavior from a non-moral psychological viewpoint, it's fairly evident that he was bisexual in orientation -- feeling desire both for males and females. Since he could not conquer nor change that, and even talking it out or seeking help to deal with it was closed to him in the position he held, he fought the homosexual component of his libido as long as he could, succumbed to it, and entered into a sordid gay relationship with a male prostitute, cheating on his wife -- and when the truth came out, was disgraced and entered into some sort of therapy, which he has now left and is writing a book and has scheduled celebrity interviews about it.

To me, the scandal here is not totally his. I suspect that if he had been able to calmly and confidentially talk out his feelings with someone, without being judged by a doctrinal system derived from misinterpretation of a few verses of Scripture which bears no relation to human reality (the doctrines not the Scripture), he might have been able to cope, control himself, and continue in his committed relationship to his wife without what happened. I hold the Dobsonian theology as much at fault as Haggard himself for what happened. We do have a choice in what we do, a moral choice. But human beings are often in need of help and support, and the doctrines had walled him off from that, refusing to recognize what was happening inside him. And so he continued to teach the doctrines he had himself been taught, while secretly cheating on his wife with a man and covering it up.

When it came out, Dobson & Co. were quick to hold him to repentance and to extend a sort of forgiveness that entailed his humiliation and disgrace. They never acknowledged the nature or even the existence of his orientation -- which puts him right back where he started emotionally, but with public disgrace and a wrecked career and a load of guilt added in. Some "abundant spirit-filled life" that is!

The gay activists acted little better, though -- holding him up as an example of hypocrisy and ridicule, rather than seeing him as a brother who had gone through some of the same problems they themselves had faced, but in his case in the limelight of publicity and public humiliation. Nobody came off looking good in that scandal.

"Judge not, lest you be judged" is there for very good reason. Jesus, truly God and truly man, knows of what we are made -- our strengths and our weaknesses. The Golden Rule comes only 11 verses after that admonition, and is directly related to it. The measure by which you judge is the measure by which you too will be judged. Therefore render judgment unto others in the same manner as which you would want your own shortcomings to be judged -- with compassion, mercy, forgiveness, and brotherly love.
 
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UnderHisWings1979

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Your point, however, is wrong. Not that there isn't an element of accuracy to it -- I know that, although my wife and I remain deeply loving and committed after almost 34 years of marriage and just scant of 50 years of friendship/courtship/wedlock in total, we have had a few tough times in the relationship, and knowing God's strength and guidance helped us through them.

However, in point of fact, it is a matter of individual character whether commitment is honored or not -- not a question of religious belief, though that may enter into it. Some believers cheat, or mistake the dying down of infatution and lust for 'falling out of love'. Some non-believers have the moral character and capacity for solid long-term love that keeps them together through thick and thin.

I am going to bend a personal rule of my own and point at Ted Haggard, not as an object of ridicule or example of hypocrisy, but as someone deserving of compassion. As we all know by now, he belonged to, in fact led, a church whose doctrinal approach included the 'homosexuality is a choice' canard. And, looking at his behavior from a non-moral psychological viewpoint, it's fairly evident that he was bisexual in orientation -- feeling desire both for males and females. Since he could not conquer nor change that, and even talking it out or seeking help to deal with it was closed to him in the position he held, he fought the homosexual component of his libido as long as he could, succumbed to it, and entered into a sordid gay relationship with a male prostitute, cheating on his wife -- and when the truth came out, was disgraced and entered into some sort of therapy, which he has now left and is writing a book and has scheduled celebrity interviews about it.

To me, the scandal here is not totally his. I suspect that if he had been able to calmly and confidentially talk out his feelings with someone, without being judged by a doctrinal system derived from misinterpretation of a few verses of Scripture which bears no relation to human reality (the doctrines not the Scripture), he might have been able to cope, control himself, and continue in his committed relationship to his wife without what happened. I hold the Dobsonian theology as much at fault as Haggard himself for what happened. We do have a choice in what we do, a moral choice. But human beings are often in need of help and support, and the doctrines had walled him off from that, refusing to recognize what was happening inside him. And so he continued to teach the doctrines he had himself been taught, while secretly cheating on his wife with a man and covering it up.

When it came out, Dobson & Co. were quick to hold him to repentance and to extend a sort of forgiveness that entailed his humiliation and disgrace. They never acknowledged the nature or even the existence of his orientation -- which puts him right back where he started emotionally, but with public disgrace and a wrecked career and a load of guilt added in. Some "abundant spirit-filled life" that is!

The gay activists acted little better, though -- holding him up as an example of hypocrisy and ridicule, rather than seeing him as a brother who had gone through some of the same problems they themselves had faced, but in his case in the limelight of publicity and public humiliation. Nobody came off looking good in that scandal.

"Judge not, lest you be judged" is there for very good reason. Jesus, truly God and truly man, knows of what we are made -- our strengths and our weaknesses. The Golden Rule comes only 11 verses after that admonition, and is directly related to it. The measure by which you judge is the measure by which you too will be judged. Therefore render judgment unto others in the same manner as which you would want your own shortcomings to be judged -- with compassion, mercy, forgiveness, and brotherly love.

I know this is a bit off topic from the OP, but I want to thank you for this post. Though I disagree with your doctrine to an extent (I do think that they correctly intertret the Bible, I just think they failed to apply that interpretation in light of the love of Christ), I do agree that Pastor Haggard got a raw deal. He was at one time a mentor to my current pastor, and the whole ordeal was pretty heavy for our church to deal with. The man clearly made some mistakes, but the way he has been treated by everyone involved is just inexcusable. And I also agree with your point about many Christians not having the moral strength to stick it out through thick and thin, and many non-believers having the courage to do so. It is sad that we often see more of Christ in the world than in the church today (on the whole). I am blessed to be in a church where that is not the case, but even then there are exceptions.
 
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Polycarp1

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"So you say you can't take it, the price is too high;
The feelings have gone, it seems the river's run dry.
You could never imagine it could turn out so rough.
You give and give and give and still it's never enough

And your emotions have vanished but what's held to thrill?
You wonder if love is still alive in you still.
But that ring on your finger, was put there to stay;
You'll never forget the words you promised that day.

Jesus didn't die for you because it was fun.
He hung there for love because it had to be done.
And despite of the anguish his word was fulfilled:
Love is not a feeling; it's an act of your will --
Love is not a feeling; it's an act of your will.

-- (c) Don Francisco
 
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david_x

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None of which is relevant to the point that non Christians can have commited relationships.

They can have a degree of commitment, yes. This human commitment is not the same as when God is part of the relationship.
 
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