Homosexuality: ethical methods of outreach?

[Zebra1552]

Please take it to another thread.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I started this thread with a specific purpose in mind. Whether or not homosexuality is inborn has nothing to do with that purpose. Do not derail my thread.

As previously noted the subject was broached in post #10 where the false statement that there is no evidence that sexual orientation is inborn was made. That statement was challenged and shown to be untrue. You kept on trying to criticize the source materials and the posters thus doing any of the derailing you are now complaining about. If you were that concerned about staying on topic you might have considered letting the facts remain as posted and moved on with the debate.


As it stands we are left with the interesting discussion of should there be “outreach” to gays and lesbians given that those individuals are born that way.

I did not start this thread to debate the semantics of sources.

You were the one who brought up the topic

I didn't say he has no idea what's going on, and I didn't accuse him of being dishonest. Do not misrepresent what I post.

Saying someone is “pretending to know what is going on” http://www.christianforums.com/t7411521-10/#post53633743 is saying that individual doesn’t know what is going on

 

[BigBadWlf]

Please take it to another thread.

Why? Exodus and so called ”reparative therapy” is defiantly “outreach” to gays and lesbians

 

[brightmorningstar]

To MajorMonogram

Well… if one comes from a known and respected scientific journal that is staffed and edited by experts in the field, and the other is a vanity press publication (for example) or put out on the web disguised as a factual paper by someone who has a long history of presenting false information (again for example) then I think it is obvious which should be considered legitimate.

Who decides whether one is from a known and respected scientific source and the other isn’t? You didn’t read my post properly. It’s a tangent.

Didn’t someone point out that there is not complete consensus that illness are caused by bacteria and viruses?

Quite possibly, but again the point is there is no consensus of scientific agreement that there is any proof of homosexuality being inborn so to claim it and ask for proof otherwise is unreasonable.

But it has been asked that evidence that homosexuality is from some other non-inborn reason be provided. So why hasn’t any been provided?

See above

Being gay isn’t a disease

Again I don’t think anyone is proven as ‘being’ gay.

Why would anyone expect such a thing.

common sense and logic.

I know many homosexuals and bisexuals who have been renewed and are still happy to be homosexuals and bisexuals

According to many passages in the NT they haven’t had their minds renewed. How can a mind be renewed from desiring sinful acts to desiring sinful acts. That’s like someone saying since I have become a Christian I continue to think stealing ,lying, hating, sexual immorality and being greedy is good and proper. As you can see in Matt 19, Mark 10 and Eph 5, Jesus NT teaching re-affirms God’s creation purpose for man and woman (Gen 2) God made male and female, it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife. The alternative is celibacy. See 1 Corinthians 7, that if a man isn’t married to avoid sexual immorality he should have a wife. See 1 Corinthians 6, homosexual offenders is what believers used to be.
We renew our minds and can test what is God’s will Romans 12, and we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5.

why?

Because instead of people hearing the truth so that their hearts and minds are renewed, their hearts are closed from the outset. It’s a bit like the rich man who wanted to justify himself by having done all required except the one thing he didn’t want to lose any of, his wealth, Jesus said to him lose the lot.

That God loves them just the way they are

Well if God so loved us as we are there wouldn’t have been any need for Jesus Christ. The issue is to reach homosexuals who don’t know the truth, not Christians who have same sex attraction but know the truth of same sex sexual relationships as sin.

 

[BigBadWlf]

To MajorMonogram
Who decides whether one is from a known and respected scientific source and the other isn’t? You didn’t read my post properly. It’s a tangent.

Vanity press involves an author paying a publisher to print what ever the author wants. There is a brisk business in this in psudo science. Paul Cameron and the Family Research Institute use such a publisher and pay to have their “research” printed under the guise of something called ”Psychological Reports” it is not a scientific publication in any way shape or form.

It is easy to look up a cited journal or publication to discern if it is peer reviewed or just some fly by night company using a local Kinkos

Quite possibly, but again the point is there is no consensus of scientific agreement that there is any proof of homosexuality being inborn so to claim it and ask for proof otherwise is unreasonable.

Actually there is consensus that there is evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. Consensus means general agreement. It is just like the consensus that disease is cause by microscopic creatures, not 100%. There are some who prompted by hatred and prejudice will try to deny or denounce that evidence that sexual orientation is inborn does not exist but they are a fringe group….much like the fringe group of medical people who believe disease is cause by invisible aliens attached to the bodies of sick people

See above

Which implies that you know there is no evidence that homosexuality originates form some non-inborn source but you just don’t want to admit it.

Again I don’t think anyone is proven as ‘being’ gay.

Pretending a minority does not exist doesn’t make that minority go away

common sense and logic.

There is no reason to expect a “gay gene” should have been found by now. We haven’t found the left handed gene or the blue eye gene, yet they appear to exist

According to many passages in the NT they haven’t had their minds renewed. How can a mind be renewed from desiring sinful acts to desiring sinful acts. That’s like someone saying since I have become a Christian I continue to think stealing ,lying, hating, sexual immorality and being greedy is good and proper. As you can see in Matt 19, Mark 10 and Eph 5, Jesus NT teaching re-affirms God’s creation purpose for man and woman (Gen 2) God made male and female, it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife. The alternative is celibacy. See 1 Corinthians 7, that if a man isn’t married to avoid sexual immorality he should have a wife. See 1 Corinthians 6, homosexual offenders is what believers used to be.
We renew our minds and can test what is God’s will Romans 12, and we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5.

Gays and lesbians are renewed just like African Americans, and the left-handed, and the paraplegic, and the arthritic

Because instead of people hearing the truth so that their hearts and minds are renewed, their hearts are closed from the outset. It’s a bit like the rich man who wanted to justify himself by having done all required except the one thing he didn’t want to lose any of, his wealth, Jesus said to him lose the lot.

The same could be said of you and your refusal of the truth and your closed heart

Well if God so loved us as we are there wouldn’t have been any need for Jesus Christ. The issue is to reach homosexuals who don’t know the truth, not Christians who have same sex attraction but know the truth of same sex sexual relationships as sin.

The truth being that God loves them just the way they are

 

[brightmorningstar]

To BigBadWlf,

Vanity press involves an author paying a publisher to print what ever the author wants.

Exactly. The government does it and so do research institutions if they are influenced by pro-gay groups.

Actually there is consensus that there is evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. Consensus means general agreement.

there is consensus that there isn’t any proof. If there is no proof there is no way someone without proof can demand proof to the contrary from someone else.

There are some who prompted by hatred and prejudice will try to deny or denounce that evidence that sexual orientation is inborn does not exist but they are a fringe group….much like the fringe group of medical people who believe disease is cause by invisible aliens attached to the bodies of sick people

Most people in the world inherently know same sex relationships are error, so most people are not a fringe group and you try and claim. Secondly the word of God is clear, as you have seen from all the scriptures presented that it is error. Most people in Sodom did it, many were doing it in Corinth and in Greek areas and cultures at the time of Jesus and in Rome and the Roman empire, but as we know it is error and detestible to God. The NT tells us those who wilfully indulge in homosexual relationships are in error and have turned away from God’s purposes.

Again I don’t think anyone is proven as ‘being’ gay.

Pretending a minority does not exist doesn’t make that minority go away

Pretending I have said something I haven’t wont advance the discussion, I have not said those with same sex attraction are not a minority nor have I said they don’t exist.
According to many passages in the NT they haven’t had their minds renewed. How can a mind be renewed from desiring sinful acts to desiring sinful acts. That’s like someone saying since I have become a Christian I continue to think stealing ,lying, hating, sexual immorality and being greedy is good and proper. As you can see in Matt 19, Mark 10 and Eph 5, Jesus NT teaching re-affirms God’s creation purpose for man and woman (Gen 2) God made male and female, it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife. The alternative is celibacy. See 1 Corinthians 7, that if a man isn’t married to avoid sexual immorality he should have a wife. See 1 Corinthians 6, homosexual offenders is what believers used to be.
We renew our minds and can test what is God’s will Romans 12, and we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5.

Gays and lesbians are renewed just like African Americans, and the left-handed, and the paraplegic, and the arthritic

So you say but the scriptures as cited above tell the opposite truth.
Because instead of people hearing the truth so that their hearts and minds are renewed, their hearts are closed from the outset. It’s a bit like the rich man who wanted to justify himself by having done all required except the one thing he didn’t want to lose any of, his wealth, Jesus said to him lose the lot.

The same could be said of you and your refusal of the truth and your closed heart

To me the truth is Jesus Christ and His teaching which I have cited to you, your baseless opinion is of no use to a debate on the matter, you need to explain your reasoning.

 

[Zebra1552]

There is already a thread 'homosexuality is natural therefore it's okay' that is discussing the issue of whether or not it is inborn. Please go there to discuss this, or start another thread.

 

[BigBadWlf]

To BigBadWlf,
Exactly. The government does it and so do research institutions if they are influenced by pro-gay groups.

Evidence please

there is consensus that there isn’t any proof. If there is no proof there is no way someone without proof can demand proof to the contrary from someone else.

It exists and honest people happily acknowledge that it exists

Most people in the world inherently know same sex relationships are error,

A generation ago most people knew that blacks were inferior to whites

 

[brightmorningstar]

To MajorMonogram,
I have cited and quoted what the word of God says in my post #113.
Now if you would first like to provide a dozen or so passages of scriptural evidence to support what you are saying then I will glady provide some evidence to my subsequent statements.

 

[BigBadWlf]

<Staff Edit>

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean refusing such dishonest outreach ploys as reparative therapy or &#8216;ex-gay&#8217; ministries.

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean excluding the use of false statements about gays and lesbians, For example:
Homosexuals have a life expectancy of 38 years
Homosexuals are promiscuous
Homosexuals can&#8217;t have children
Homosexuals are more likely to sexually abuse children
Homosexuals are 5000 times more likely to have a sexually transmitted disease
Homosexuals are more likely to be criminals
You are more likely to be murdered by a homosexual than a heterosexual
Most if not all mass murders are homosexual
Homosexuals are more likely to be mentally ill

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean being honest with biblical translations used to condemn homosexuals. For example being honest about the fact that there is no evidence that the word arsenokoites in 1 Cor 6:9-11 translates as homosexual.

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean being honest about the origins of homosexuality. Meaning acknowledging it is not a choice or the result of how one was raised.

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean acknowledging that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

 

[brightmorningstar]

BigBadWlf wrote:

Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean being honest with biblical translations used to condemn homosexuals.

That isn&#8217;t being honest with the Biblical translations which condemn same sex practice. It also misses the fundamental reason for Jesus Christ, to make available salvation for all from all sin.
This came up once with group inclusivechurch, the idea that the gospel of Jesus Christ could not be good news to gays because in it are condemnations of sexual immorality such as same sex relations which gays evidently hold more precious. The fact that all Christian used to ok with adultery, idolatry, theft, greed etc means that if homosexual were being condemned so would everyone else.
The most obvious meaning of arsenokoites is man sex-bed as opposed to marriage bed so in the light of God&#8217;s purposes for faithful union for man and woman and sexual immorality all outside that, to doubt this meaning is the height of legalism for licence.

But this only makes it very difficult to reach people with the truth of Jesus Christ if such a spiritual barrier exists. The NT was written either so that people may believe, or so that people who believe can know what to believe, it is not much use to people who don&#8217;t believe in Christ. Therefore when I witness to my gay and lesbian friends it&#8217;s the love of God rather than what believers do, what believers do is for believers, otherwise for the non-believer its simply law and rules rather than a heart and mind relationship.

 

[MajorMonogram]

BigBadWlf wrote:
That isn’t being honest with the Biblical translations which condemn same sex practice. It also misses the fundamental reason for Jesus Christ, to make available salvation for all from all sin. [/color]
This came up once with group inclusivechurch, the idea that the gospel of Jesus Christ could not be good news to gays because in it are condemnations of sexual immorality such as same sex relations which gays evidently hold more precious. The fact that all Christian used to ok with adultery, idolatry, theft, greed etc means that if homosexual were being condemned so would everyone else.
The most obvious meaning of arsenokoites is man sex-bed as opposed to marriage bed so in the light of God’s purposes for faithful union for man and woman and sexual immorality all outside that, to doubt this meaning is the height of legalism for licence.

But this only makes it very difficult to reach people with the truth of Jesus Christ if such a spiritual barrier exists. The NT was written either so that people may believe, or so that people who believe can know what to believe, it is not much use to people who don’t believe in Christ. Therefore when I witness to my gay and lesbian friends it’s the love of God rather than what believers do, what believers do is for believers, otherwise for the non-believer its simply law and rules rather than a heart and mind relationship.

Being honest is looking at all the evidence even if it leads to conclusions you may not like. Being dishonest is to ignore or attack the evidence because it may to lead to conclusions you may not like

 

[peace4ever]

Given that this forum, least whilst I was around, was heavily involved in debates about homosexuality, I have wondered if there is a method we should be using in trying to reach homosexuals that will work best. That is, are there approaches that do not work as well and do work, and might they be considered moral and immoral?

The only "methods" that will work are talking to those whom God is calling. "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." But I'm afraid that since society (including many "Christian" churches), have claimed that God condones homosexuality, then I'm afraid it's going to be harder and harder to keep homosexulas from hell.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To MajorMonogram,

Being honest is looking at all the evidence even if it leads to conclusions you may not like. Being dishonest is to ignore or attack the evidence because it may to lead to conclusions you may not like

Exactly, hence my post.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Its a bit like Ezekiel was told by God. God didnt send him to a people who couldnt understand what he was saying, but to God's people themselves; and God warned Ezekiel that some would not listen to God's words through him because they are rebellious; and to expect them to be like scorpions to him.
In the same those in the church know what the truth is even if they dont like it, but to the people who dont know the truth, first Jesus has to touch their lives.

 

[BigBadWlf]

To MajorMonogram,
Exactly, hence my post.

You said exactly the oppostie in your post

 

[DarylFawcett]

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