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As previously noted the subject was broached in post #10 where the false statement that there is no evidence that sexual orientation is inborn was made. That statement was challenged and shown to be untrue. You kept on trying to criticize the source materials and the posters thus doing any of the derailing you are now complaining about. If you were that concerned about staying on topic you might have considered letting the facts remain as posted and moved on with the debate.I started this thread with a specific purpose in mind. Whether or not homosexuality is inborn has nothing to do with that purpose. Do not derail my thread.
You were the one who brought up the topicI did not start this thread to debate the semantics of sources.
Saying someone is pretending to know what is going on http://www.christianforums.com/t7411521-10/#post53633743 is saying that individual doesnt know what is going onI didn't say he has no idea what's going on, and I didn't accuse him of being dishonest. Do not misrepresent what I post.
Why? Exodus and so called reparative therapy is defiantly outreach to gays and lesbiansPlease take it to another thread.
Who decides whether one is from a known and respected scientific source and the other isnt? You didnt read my post properly. Its a tangent.Well if one comes from a known and respected scientific journal that is staffed and edited by experts in the field, and the other is a vanity press publication (for example) or put out on the web disguised as a factual paper by someone who has a long history of presenting false information (again for example) then I think it is obvious which should be considered legitimate.
Quite possibly, but again the point is there is no consensus of scientific agreement that there is any proof of homosexuality being inborn so to claim it and ask for proof otherwise is unreasonable.Didnt someone point out that there is not complete consensus that illness are caused by bacteria and viruses?
See aboveBut it has been asked that evidence that homosexuality is from some other non-inborn reason be provided. So why hasnt any been provided?
Again I dont think anyone is proven as being gay.Being gay isnt a disease
common sense and logic.Why would anyone expect such a thing.
According to many passages in the NT they havent had their minds renewed. How can a mind be renewed from desiring sinful acts to desiring sinful acts. Thats like someone saying since I have become a Christian I continue to think stealing ,lying, hating, sexual immorality and being greedy is good and proper. As you can see in Matt 19, Mark 10 and Eph 5, Jesus NT teaching re-affirms Gods creation purpose for man and woman (Gen 2) God made male and female, it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife. The alternative is celibacy. See 1 Corinthians 7, that if a man isnt married to avoid sexual immorality he should have a wife. See 1 Corinthians 6, homosexual offenders is what believers used to be.I know many homosexuals and bisexuals who have been renewed and are still happy to be homosexuals and bisexuals
Because instead of people hearing the truth so that their hearts and minds are renewed, their hearts are closed from the outset. Its a bit like the rich man who wanted to justify himself by having done all required except the one thing he didnt want to lose any of, his wealth, Jesus said to him lose the lot.why?
Well if God so loved us as we are there wouldnt have been any need for Jesus Christ. The issue is to reach homosexuals who dont know the truth, not Christians who have same sex attraction but know the truth of same sex sexual relationships as sin.That God loves them just the way they are
To MajorMonogram
Who decides whether one is from a known and respected scientific source and the other isnt? You didnt read my post properly. Its a tangent.
Actually there is consensus that there is evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. Consensus means general agreement. It is just like the consensus that disease is cause by microscopic creatures, not 100%. There are some who prompted by hatred and prejudice will try to deny or denounce that evidence that sexual orientation is inborn does not exist but they are a fringe group .much like the fringe group of medical people who believe disease is cause by invisible aliens attached to the bodies of sick peopleQuite possibly, but again the point is there is no consensus of scientific agreement that there is any proof of homosexuality being inborn so to claim it and ask for proof otherwise is unreasonable.
See above
Pretending a minority does not exist doesnt make that minority go awayAgain I dont think anyone is proven as being gay.
There is no reason to expect a gay gene should have been found by now. We havent found the left handed gene or the blue eye gene, yet they appear to existcommon sense and logic.
Gays and lesbians are renewed just like African Americans, and the left-handed, and the paraplegic, and the arthriticAccording to many passages in the NT they havent had their minds renewed. How can a mind be renewed from desiring sinful acts to desiring sinful acts. Thats like someone saying since I have become a Christian I continue to think stealing ,lying, hating, sexual immorality and being greedy is good and proper. As you can see in Matt 19, Mark 10 and Eph 5, Jesus NT teaching re-affirms Gods creation purpose for man and woman (Gen 2) God made male and female, it was for this reason that a man shall leave his father and mother and be united with his wife. The alternative is celibacy. See 1 Corinthians 7, that if a man isnt married to avoid sexual immorality he should have a wife. See 1 Corinthians 6, homosexual offenders is what believers used to be.
We renew our minds and can test what is Gods will Romans 12, and we demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5.
Because instead of people hearing the truth so that their hearts and minds are renewed, their hearts are closed from the outset. Its a bit like the rich man who wanted to justify himself by having done all required except the one thing he didnt want to lose any of, his wealth, Jesus said to him lose the lot.
The truth being that God loves them just the way they areWell if God so loved us as we are there wouldnt have been any need for Jesus Christ. The issue is to reach homosexuals who dont know the truth, not Christians who have same sex attraction but know the truth of same sex sexual relationships as sin.
Exactly. The government does it and so do research institutions if they are influenced by pro-gay groups.Vanity press involves an author paying a publisher to print what ever the author wants.
there is consensus that there isn’t any proof. If there is no proof there is no way someone without proof can demand proof to the contrary from someone else.Actually there is consensus that there is evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. Consensus means general agreement.
Most people in the world inherently know same sex relationships are error, so most people are not a fringe group and you try and claim. Secondly the word of God is clear, as you have seen from all the scriptures presented that it is error. Most people in Sodom did it, many were doing it in Corinth and in Greek areas and cultures at the time of Jesus and in Rome and the Roman empire, but as we know it is error and detestible to God. The NT tells us those who wilfully indulge in homosexual relationships are in error and have turned away from God’s purposes.There are some who prompted by hatred and prejudice will try to deny or denounce that evidence that sexual orientation is inborn does not exist but they are a fringe group….much like the fringe group of medical people who believe disease is cause by invisible aliens attached to the bodies of sick people
Pretending I have said something I haven’t wont advance the discussion, I have not said those with same sex attraction are not a minority nor have I said they don’t exist.Pretending a minority does not exist doesn’t make that minority go away
So you say but the scriptures as cited above tell the opposite truth.Gays and lesbians are renewed just like African Americans, and the left-handed, and the paraplegic, and the arthritic
To me the truth is Jesus Christ and His teaching which I have cited to you, your baseless opinion is of no use to a debate on the matter, you need to explain your reasoning.The same could be said of you and your refusal of the truth and your closed heart
To BigBadWlf,
Exactly. The government does it and so do research institutions if they are influenced by pro-gay groups.
It exists and honest people happily acknowledge that it existsthere is consensus that there isnt any proof. If there is no proof there is no way someone without proof can demand proof to the contrary from someone else.
A generation ago most people knew that blacks were inferior to whitesMost people in the world inherently know same sex relationships are error,
That isn’t being honest with the Biblical translations which condemn same sex practice. It also misses the fundamental reason for Jesus Christ, to make available salvation for all from all sin.Ethical and honest methods of outreach would mean being honest with biblical translations used to condemn homosexuals.
Being honest is looking at all the evidence even if it leads to conclusions you may not like. Being dishonest is to ignore or attack the evidence because it may to lead to conclusions you may not likeBigBadWlf wrote:
That isnt being honest with the Biblical translations which condemn same sex practice. It also misses the fundamental reason for Jesus Christ, to make available salvation for all from all sin. [/color]
This came up once with group inclusivechurch, the idea that the gospel of Jesus Christ could not be good news to gays because in it are condemnations of sexual immorality such as same sex relations which gays evidently hold more precious. The fact that all Christian used to ok with adultery, idolatry, theft, greed etc means that if homosexual were being condemned so would everyone else.
The most obvious meaning of arsenokoites is man sex-bed as opposed to marriage bed so in the light of Gods purposes for faithful union for man and woman and sexual immorality all outside that, to doubt this meaning is the height of legalism for licence.
But this only makes it very difficult to reach people with the truth of Jesus Christ if such a spiritual barrier exists. The NT was written either so that people may believe, or so that people who believe can know what to believe, it is not much use to people who dont believe in Christ. Therefore when I witness to my gay and lesbian friends its the love of God rather than what believers do, what believers do is for believers, otherwise for the non-believer its simply law and rules rather than a heart and mind relationship.
Given that this forum, least whilst I was around, was heavily involved in debates about homosexuality, I have wondered if there is a method we should be using in trying to reach homosexuals that will work best. That is, are there approaches that do not work as well and do work, and might they be considered moral and immoral?
Exactly, hence my post.Being honest is looking at all the evidence even if it leads to conclusions you may not like. Being dishonest is to ignore or attack the evidence because it may to lead to conclusions you may not like
You said exactly the oppostie in your postTo MajorMonogram,
Exactly, hence my post.