Homosexuality......are people born that way? (moved from Christian Advice)

[Poverello78]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here, or at least a serious lack of common definition, regarding the concepts of love, romance, intimacy, and sexuality. It's almost as though some people have thrown them all into one pot and are trying as hard as they can to mix them together, even to the point of completely removing any real differentiation between them. This I believe to be a very unhealthy and misguided practice.

Last night I spent some time going over a few portions of what I regard as the greatest psychology book of our time, The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck. I came across multiple excerpts that I felt might really bring some perspective and definition to the notions being discussed here, but one stood out in particular:

"Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that 'falling in love' is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love. When a person falls in love what he or she certainly feels is 'I love him' or 'I love her'. But two problems are immediately apparent. The first is that the experience of falling in love is specifically a sex-linked erotic experience. We do not fall in love with our children even though we may love them very deeply. We do not fall in love with our friends of the same sex—unless we are homosexually oriented—even though we may care for them greatly. We fall in love only when we are consciously or unconsciously sexually motivated."

The point he's making here, and which I believe to be very relevant to our topic, is that there's a great difference between "falling in love" (i.e. romantic and intimate relations) and actually loving someone. On a side note, the part where he says "unless we are homosexually oriented" is not, by the way, meant to be some exception to the rule he's trying to convey.

I'll not deny that the two are (or can be) interrelated, but the contrast between an actual love for another and the sexually motivated desire to form a romantic or intimate relationship with them is something I believe our conversations about homosexuality are severely lacking. Quite frankly, it makes me very sad to see so many people defending homosexuality by appealing to love in general, not because I disagree with homosexual relationships, but because I firmly believe it to be a very ignorant and psychologically unsound argument—it outright ignores the fact that homosexuality is nothing but a form of sexuality (hence the word 'homo-sexual').

I know some or many of you will disagree with what I'm saying here. I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

[visionary]

...fact that homosexuality is nothing but a form of sexuality (hence the word 'homo-sexual

Worth repeating.

 

[David Brider]

I'll not deny that the two are (or can be) interrelated, but the contrast between an actual love for another and the sexually motivated desire to form a romantic or intimate relationship with them is something I believe our conversations about homosexuality are severely lacking.

For most people, I suspect, the distinction you're trying to make would seem rather meaningless. You meet someone, and if there's some form of mutual attraction then it's quite possible that you might fall in love with them, and they with you, and some form of romantic or intimate relationship may develop with them. Of course, if the initial attraction isn't reciprocated, that may be problematic. And yes, there's a difference between "falling in love with someone" and "loving someone", but the reality is that - for most people, I suspect - the two are heavily inter-related.

And let's be realistic - that scenario can apply equally in same-gender relationships as in opposite-gender relationships.

Quite frankly, it makes me very sad to see so many people defending homosexuality by appealing to love in general, not because I disagree with homosexual relationships, but because I firmly believe it to be a very ignorant and psychologically unsound argument—it outright ignores the fact that homosexuality is nothing but a form of sexuality (hence the word 'homo-sexual').

Two points: firstly, as I've had to point out to other debaters on these forums, the "-sexual" bit of "homosexual" refers primarily to gender. That is, it's a tendency to be romantically and/or physically attracted to people of the same (homo-) gender (-sexual) as oneself.

Secondly, would you say that "heterosexuality is nothing but a form of sexuality (hence the word 'hetero-sexual')"? Because the reality is that, apart from the fact that heterosexuals are romantically and/or physically attracted to people of the opposite (hetero-) gender (-sexual) to oneself, the differences between homosexuality and heterosexuality are, in fact, minimal.

David.

 

[Poverello78]

For most people, I suspect, the distinction you're trying to make would seem rather meaningless. You meet someone, and if there's some form of mutual attraction then it's quite possible that you might fall in love with them, and they with you, and some form of romantic or intimate relationship may develop with them. Of course, if the initial attraction isn't reciprocated, that may be problematic. And yes, there's a difference between "falling in love with someone" and "loving someone", but the reality is that - for most people, I suspect - the two are heavily inter-related.

And let's be realistic - that scenario can apply equally in same-gender relationships as in opposite-gender relationships.

You seem to be missing my point. All I'm saying is that, though love and sexual attraction can be interrelated (which we both have acknowledged), one does not necessitate the other and they can be entirely separate. As an example regarding interrelationship, I can "have fun at Disneyland" but I do not need to be at Disneyland to have fun, nor does it follow that if I am "having fun" I am therefore at Disneyland. The "being at Disneyland" and "having fun" are two wholly separate things just as "love" and "sexual attraction" are separate; but they do often occur in relation to one another.

Two points: firstly, as I've had to point out to other debaters on these forums, the "-sexual" bit of "homosexual" refers primarily to gender. That is, it's a tendency to be romantically and/or physically attracted to people of the same (homo-) gender (-sexual) as oneself.

What you've said here explains the word 'homosexual' no differently than how I was using it. You've affirmed my conclusion that the concept of 'homosexual' refers solely to sexuality and nothing else.

Secondly, would you say that "heterosexuality is nothing but a form of sexuality (hence the word 'hetero-sexual')"? Because the reality is that, apart from the fact that heterosexuals are romantically and/or physically attracted to people of the opposite (hetero-) gender (-sexual) to oneself, the differences between homosexuality and heterosexuality are, in fact, minimal.

David.

Yes, everything I've said regarding homosexuality applies in exactly the same way to heterosexuality. I decided not to mention anything about heterosexuality because it's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

What's bothering me most is that there seems to be this notion going around that an intimate romantic relationship is synonymous with love or, as 'Starlight' put it, "living in a happy loving relationship"--this is a trivialization of the topic. In fact, I've seen multiple instances on this forum where that notion is being used (invariably by pro-gays), and I have a sneaking suspicion that they use it because they either lack understanding or because it's consoling, even empowering, to believe you are on the side of love while those who disagree with you are not.

 

[Blue sapphire]

You seem to be missing my point. All I'm saying is that, though love and sexual attraction can be interrelated (which we both have acknowledged), one does not necessitate the other and they can be entirely separate. As an example regarding interrelationship, I can "have fun at Disneyland" but I do not need to be at Disneyland to have fun, nor does it follow that if I am "having fun" I am therefore at Disneyland. The "being at Disneyland" and "having fun" are two wholly separate things just as "love" and "sexual attraction" are separate; but they do often occur in relation to one another.

What you've said here explains the word 'homosexual' no differently than how I was using it. You've affirmed my conclusion that the concept of 'homosexual' refers solely to sexuality and nothing else.

Yes, everything I've said regarding homosexuality applies in exactly the same way to heterosexuality. I decided not to mention anything about heterosexuality because it's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

What's bothering me most is that there seems to be this notion going around that an intimate romantic relationship is synonymous with love or, as 'Starlight' put it, "living in a happy loving relationship"--this is a trivialization of the topic. In fact, I've seen multiple instances on this forum where that notion is being used (invariably by pro-gays), and I have a sneaking suspicion that they use it because they either lack understanding or because it's consoling, even empowering, to believe you are on the side of love while those who disagree with you are not.

Even though you are off topic Poverello.....I like your input on the issue of love in a homosexual relationship......it is like saying that I am attracted to another female....and as I am married it would be wrong of me to pursue that love attraction....as God would not condone it.

Likewise......in a homosexual attraction....the love attraction does not have to be pursued......as Scripture has made plain.

....and the point made earlier that.....we are all born into sin....some with emotional issues....some with violent issues....some with sexual issues....some with lazy issues and so on......

so......the issue here is... that we all must turn to our Creator......and through Jesus we have forgivness.....we have salvation......

It is a journy though......and it takes time to sort out our lives......but God is patient....He is a merciful God....not wanting any to perish.....what a wonderful Creator we serve.

 

[HaloHope]

Well....I ask this question for a number of families I know have children who are inclined this way..

Seeing as I am "inclind that way" I will do my best to answer honestly.

My question relates to why is this happening....are people born this way....that is.... in their DNA or are other factors at play here.

I think DNA plays a factor, but I also think that enviroment can influence things too, a mix of nature and nuture if you will. For me I spent all my teenage years wondering why people wanted boyfreinds and girlfreinds, I didn't understand sexuality and didn't have any feelings towards anyone. It wasn't till I turned 20 that I met another woman who for whatever reason clicked with me, and I clicked with her and we have been together ever since. For me, meeting her was like a light bulb coming on about why people wanted relationships.

Also.. why does it happen in Christian families.

No idea. Some Christians don't view it as a sin as you had probably found out by now, but im assuming you mean "why does it occour in famalies who don't agree with homosexuality"? . Probably as its down to DNA to some degree, my grandparents told me it was wrong all the time and I'm still gay and my girlfreind was born into a Catholic household who disapproved of it. It just happens.

From our Makers perspective.....I wonder why this is so?

I think God makes some of us gay, some of us bi, some of us straight and some of us a-sexual. Simple really.

I would appreciate your thoughtful views.

Hope mine helped

 

[Blue sapphire]

Seeing as I am "inclind that way" I will do my best to answer honestly.



I think DNA plays a factor, but I also think that enviroment can influence things too, a mix of nature and nuture if you will. For me I spent all my teenage years wondering why people wanted boyfreinds and girlfreinds, I didn't understand sexuality and didn't have any feelings towards anyone. It wasn't till I turned 20 that I met another woman who for whatever reason clicked with me, and I clicked with her and we have been together ever since. For me, meeting her was like a light bulb coming on about why people wanted relationships.



No idea. Some Christians don't view it as a sin as you had probably found out by now, but im assuming you mean "why does it occour in famalies who don't agree with homosexuality"? . Probably as its down to DNA to some degree, my grandparents told me it was wrong all the time and I'm still gay and my girlfreind was born into a Catholic household who disapproved of it. It just happens.



I think God makes some of us gay, some of us bi, some of us straight and some of us a-sexual. Simple really.



Hope mine helped

Thank you for your input halo......your point is noted....however as to my last post.....we are all born with sin issues......and if one believes that this type of behaviour acted out in a sexual way is against what the Bible says.....this person will turn to Christ and be led by Him....rather than be led by our sin.

Now this may sound like I am saying a homosexual should not fulfill their desires.......but likewise....should a married man who desires other women....have relations with them......should a person who lies .....continue to lie and steal......should a person who suffers depression....commit suicide.....should a lazy person.....complain about their life.

Of course if you do not believe that the Bible forbids this type of behaviour acted out in a sexual way.......you can do as you please......however we are playing with our eternal.. spiritual lives....better we get this right... don't you think.

 

[HaloHope]

Thank you for your input halo......your point is noted....however as to my last post.....we are all born with sin issues......and if one believes that this type of behaviour acted out in a sexual way is against what the Bible says.....this person will turn to Christ and be led by Him....rather than be led by our sin.

This all boils down to what one believes to be a sin, I do not feel the Bible is at all clear on the issue of homosexuality, I do not believe monogamous homosexual relationships are sinful.

Now this may sound like I am saying a homosexual should not fulfill their desires.......but likewise....should a married man who desires other women....have relations with them......should a person who lies .....continue to lie and steal......should a person who suffers depression....commit suicide.....should a lazy person.....complain about their life.

I do not believe a loving God would forbid me or any other homosexual person from having a relationship with a person I love. It's not possible for me to be romantically in love with a man, and I don't bellieve for one moment God would stop me from having romance with anyone in my life. I also think the issue of harm is important when it comes to sin.. adultary is a sin as it harms people, likewise stealing, likewise murder. Homosexuality within the confines of monogamy harms none.

Of course if you do not believe that the Bible forbids this type of behaviour acted out in a sexual way.......you can do as you please......however we are playing with our eternal.. spiritual lives....better we get this right... don't you think.

A belief system based on fear over prayer and a personal relationship with God isnt worth having.

 

[Poverello78]

Even though you are off topic Poverello.....I like your input on the issue of love in a homosexual relationship...

I recognize that my point is off-topic, but I'm attempting to clear up a fundamental misconception that seems to be getting the better of many people on this forum.

I've yet to state my own position regarding homosexuality, however, so I won't say anything regarding the rest of your reply.