Well gee, I wonder why, do you mess around with boys?
And I think you have failed to prove how homosexual sex is moral or natural. Stop getting mad and make a case for yourself.
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Homosexuality - A Challenge
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Well gee, I wonder why, do you mess around with boys?
And I think you have failed to prove how homosexual sex is moral or natural. Stop getting mad and make a case for yourself.
seebs, I think you know that I mean homosexual sex and not the thoughts of homosexuality are condemned in the bible (according to me, I guess I am the only one ), we've been over this before.
And dang it, that's it, lets not ruin the thread with the bible, I will be silent until the thread author comes back.....
So be cool.
), we've been over this before.And dang it, that's it, lets not ruin the thread with the bible, I will be silent until the thread author comes back.....
So be cool.
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Hey I changed this guys, ok, it did seem as though I was calling gay people flamers, and that was not my intentions.
Have a great night, and peace be with all of you. I hope we are still friends.
In Reason....
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Originally posted by GTX
This was my view of how heterosexual people view gay people, not necessarily how I view them, I said somewhere else that I might get a little instinctivly uneasy or whatever, but I never said anything bigotted.
And why the
That doesn't seem bigotted to you? What if i said minorities make my skin crawl?
I'm bi, so I'm placed in the 'gross/deviant' pile with the gays. I'd hate for someone to really hold that much hatred of me based on the fact I like guys.
What you said was very, very wrong.
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No, I don't mess around with boys or girls. I'm a devout Christian and have a lot of self-respect. I'm very hesitant to even kiss someone. I won't even have sex until I'm married.
Moral or natural? I don't believe homosexuality is moral because if something is moral it is something you should do.
Men should be attracted to women and women to men.
But sometimes that's just not possible. Being deaf isn't moral or natural, but it isn't wrong either.
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Rize
Well-Known Member
Well, it's quite clear that sins such as murder and theft are wrong since they impact other people adversely.
For sins that do not involve the overt harm of another person, it's more difficult (if not impossible) to justify calling it a sin without the Bible.
Are indulgences of the flesh (over-eating for example) clearly sinful? A case can be made since it can harm the body and also since overeating arguably wastes money. In fact, most indulgences of the flesh waste money.
As for homosexuality... what about any of God's laws on sex? The only sexual relations that are allowed by the Bible are those within marriages (though it is not necessary to have the intention of conceiving children, so it would seem that God is not unreasonable). Yet I know from personal experience that our society is over-sexed. My interest in sex decreased dramatically in a short space of time after I became a Christian. It took a few months, and then it seemed to go away like turning off a light switch (in response to discpline and prayer). Since that time, "hot" women just aren't attractive to me (because sex is only acceptable within marriage). There is a very minor response in a few rare cases now, but compared to my early months as a Christian (which were no different than when I was a non-Christian) the difference is like night and day. And as I said, it was like the flick of a switch.
That said, I cannot justify the condemnation of homosexuality apart from "God said so", but for me (and any other Christian) that is more than enough. Especially in light of what I've learned of sex drive from personal experience. Even if homosexuality is a genetic disposition, the person can simply remain unmarried.
For sins that do not involve the overt harm of another person, it's more difficult (if not impossible) to justify calling it a sin without the Bible.
Are indulgences of the flesh (over-eating for example) clearly sinful? A case can be made since it can harm the body and also since overeating arguably wastes money. In fact, most indulgences of the flesh waste money.
As for homosexuality... what about any of God's laws on sex? The only sexual relations that are allowed by the Bible are those within marriages (though it is not necessary to have the intention of conceiving children, so it would seem that God is not unreasonable). Yet I know from personal experience that our society is over-sexed. My interest in sex decreased dramatically in a short space of time after I became a Christian. It took a few months, and then it seemed to go away like turning off a light switch (in response to discpline and prayer). Since that time, "hot" women just aren't attractive to me (because sex is only acceptable within marriage). There is a very minor response in a few rare cases now, but compared to my early months as a Christian (which were no different than when I was a non-Christian) the difference is like night and day. And as I said, it was like the flick of a switch.
That said, I cannot justify the condemnation of homosexuality apart from "God said so", but for me (and any other Christian) that is more than enough. Especially in light of what I've learned of sex drive from personal experience. Even if homosexuality is a genetic disposition, the person can simply remain unmarried.
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I can eat 50 eggs
what we have here is a failure to communicate
what in the world makes you think I don't treat homosexuals like human beings? I promise you I treat them as well, if not better than you do.
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I can eat 50 eggs
what we have here is a failure to communicate
That is correct, however, we aren't talking about secular law, as has been mentioned numerous times, there is nothing legally stopping (well, except for non enforced sodomy laws) 2 people from living whatever lifestyle they choose. That was never the question here, the question was is it right or wrong to do so.
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I can eat 50 eggs
what we have here is a failure to communicate
huh? have you read that little book called the Bible? or is that not the god you are talking about.
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I can eat 50 eggs
what we have here is a failure to communicate
oh, I get your argument now. Is there something in the Bible (oops, used that B word again, sorry) that says it's wrong to love another man in that way? is that the whole gist of your rant?
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Okay. This is an extremely complex issue and I won't insult it, or those who've chosen to post about it by pretending otherwise. But I will try to clarify a few points, as well as the main idea of starting this thread.
I believe that a lot of the moral guidelines in the bible are defensible. This is because the prohibit acts that would harm yourself or other people, or are exploiting others for one's own gain. This of course includes activities such as beastiality and paedophelia, as this is the exploitation of an animal or a child for one's sexual gratification. Drug and alcohol addictions are examples of laws protecting us from harming ourselves.
However, homosexuality and mutually consented homosexual acts fall into neither one of these two categories. They do not harm or exploit others, and do no harm those who engage in them. This is the ONLY reason why use of the bible is not permitted in this debate. Were we debating virtually any other point of law in the bible, we could bring in all manner of real-world issues to back up the bible's apparent teaching, but with reference to homosexuality, there simply aren't any anti-gay facts to be used.
Now, onto other issues. I do not claim to know what causes homosexuality. I do know that it is innert and cannot be changed. But I would raise the point, does it really matter? Does it really matter if it is caused by genetic changes or environmental factors? I think not. Nor does it matter whether homosexuality is chosen or not (even though in nearly all cases it isn't). Do we fuss over whether people choose to wear the red or the green sweater? No. So just because red sweaters are in season this year, doesn't make green sweaters a bad choice, just a minority one.
A few people have expressed their disgust at gay people who express their affection in public. I ask, why? Surely this is no less valid than a heterosexual couple expressing affection? If a child sees it, then great. They will grow up to understand that the world is a place where all kinds of love can happen, instead of growing up believing the lie that homosexuals are evil creatures of the night that come out after dark and prey on children. Hey, when I was ten that was what I believed, because whenever I saw homosexuals, they were scandalised and painted as perverts. It wasn't until I got out into the real world and met a few (and got rid of the church from my life) that I discovered the true nature of gays. I was pleasantly surprised. Most of them were perfectly nice, ordinary people... while some were absolute cretins! LOL A typical cross-section of the human race. So if you do feel repulsed when you see a gay person expressing affection in the street, stop a moment and ask yourself why. And would you feel that way if you'd seen them doing it when you were much younger? Or maybe seen a few gays on TV? You're not used to it, that's all that's going on. And there's only one way to change that... lots of public queer snogging! Yay!
Nearly all of the problems commonly associated with homosexuality (depression, suicides, anti-gay hate crimes, broken families... among others), can be traced back to homophobia, or a lack of education about homosexuals or homosexual sex acts. Countless health risks and injuries could be avoided if greater education about safe gay sex were provided in our schools. Teen suicides would be drastically reduced if kids didn't have to fear the word 'gay' like plague in the playground. Parents would be spared much of the heartbreak they currently suffer when a child comes out to them if the more conservative voices in our community would just shut their traps for a moment. Get the picture? I'm not talking about special rights, or the elevation of homosexuality above heterosexuality, that's just silly. I'm talking about the complete integration of homosexuality into our society and its complete neutralisation as an 'issue'. It shouldn't be an issue, it should be accepted as a fact of life, and those who identify as homosexuals, should have every right accorded to their heterosexual counterparts.
I believe that a lot of the moral guidelines in the bible are defensible. This is because the prohibit acts that would harm yourself or other people, or are exploiting others for one's own gain. This of course includes activities such as beastiality and paedophelia, as this is the exploitation of an animal or a child for one's sexual gratification. Drug and alcohol addictions are examples of laws protecting us from harming ourselves.
However, homosexuality and mutually consented homosexual acts fall into neither one of these two categories. They do not harm or exploit others, and do no harm those who engage in them. This is the ONLY reason why use of the bible is not permitted in this debate. Were we debating virtually any other point of law in the bible, we could bring in all manner of real-world issues to back up the bible's apparent teaching, but with reference to homosexuality, there simply aren't any anti-gay facts to be used.
Now, onto other issues. I do not claim to know what causes homosexuality. I do know that it is innert and cannot be changed. But I would raise the point, does it really matter? Does it really matter if it is caused by genetic changes or environmental factors? I think not. Nor does it matter whether homosexuality is chosen or not (even though in nearly all cases it isn't). Do we fuss over whether people choose to wear the red or the green sweater? No. So just because red sweaters are in season this year, doesn't make green sweaters a bad choice, just a minority one.
A few people have expressed their disgust at gay people who express their affection in public. I ask, why? Surely this is no less valid than a heterosexual couple expressing affection? If a child sees it, then great. They will grow up to understand that the world is a place where all kinds of love can happen, instead of growing up believing the lie that homosexuals are evil creatures of the night that come out after dark and prey on children. Hey, when I was ten that was what I believed, because whenever I saw homosexuals, they were scandalised and painted as perverts. It wasn't until I got out into the real world and met a few (and got rid of the church from my life) that I discovered the true nature of gays. I was pleasantly surprised. Most of them were perfectly nice, ordinary people... while some were absolute cretins! LOL A typical cross-section of the human race. So if you do feel repulsed when you see a gay person expressing affection in the street, stop a moment and ask yourself why. And would you feel that way if you'd seen them doing it when you were much younger? Or maybe seen a few gays on TV? You're not used to it, that's all that's going on. And there's only one way to change that... lots of public queer snogging! Yay!
Nearly all of the problems commonly associated with homosexuality (depression, suicides, anti-gay hate crimes, broken families... among others), can be traced back to homophobia, or a lack of education about homosexuals or homosexual sex acts. Countless health risks and injuries could be avoided if greater education about safe gay sex were provided in our schools. Teen suicides would be drastically reduced if kids didn't have to fear the word 'gay' like plague in the playground. Parents would be spared much of the heartbreak they currently suffer when a child comes out to them if the more conservative voices in our community would just shut their traps for a moment. Get the picture? I'm not talking about special rights, or the elevation of homosexuality above heterosexuality, that's just silly. I'm talking about the complete integration of homosexuality into our society and its complete neutralisation as an 'issue'. It shouldn't be an issue, it should be accepted as a fact of life, and those who identify as homosexuals, should have every right accorded to their heterosexual counterparts.
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I can eat 50 eggs
what we have here is a failure to communicate
oh, now I get what your talking about, very well put, sorry we couldn't start that way, let me get back to you. THanks Borg....
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[mod hat off]
This thread was reported, therefore;
I'm stepping in here to remind the posters that even if this in the News forum, and not a specific denomination board, this is a Christian messageboard. All members are to post with as much respect as you can manage, even in a moment of frustration.
Before anyone starts posting again, read the following rule;
[nobad][/nobad]
I don't care what room this topic is in, all of the rules apply. This will be the 1 and only reminder/warning that will be given. If this thread disintrigrates, it will be closed immediately.
Thank you.
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Texas Lynn
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Originally posted by GTX
You are right about that, because your people are killing my people.
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Answer: The same thing which is wrong with most churches. Ultimately God gives you a choice to follow His plan or your own plan. Most churches have chosen their own plans: their own innovations of God's plan for salvation; their own plan for church organization; their own plan for unity; their own plan for worship, etc. All the homosexual community has done is come up with their own plan for human relations.
God made man male and female.
If you want to see God smile, start trying to find our what pleases Him. (Answer: His plan.) The spiritual journey that this question will take you on is wonderful and leads you away from the crowds and masses. Don't worry, if you start asking the question, "What pleases God?" you will never end up in populist religious groups. Instead, you'll discover what Jesus pioneered for us.
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God made people with a given hair colour. Dying it is unnatural. Cutting one's hair is unnatural. Clipping one's fingernails is unnatural. Cooking food, even, is unnatural. Using technology is most definitely unnatural, and a few hundred years ago my computer would have been sufficient to have me killed for witchcraft. Building houses is unnatural. Wearing clothes is unnatural.
Procreation is independent of a relationship, neither needs the other. We've no shortage of people these days. There will always be enough heterosexual couples to ensure the survival of the human race. God may have given us the ability to reproduce, but that doesn't mean we *all* have to use it. We seem to have the ability to hate, too. Should we likewise use this at every available opportunity?
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fragmentsofdreams
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Gay marriage is a legal issue which prevents same-sex couples from enjoying the same legal protections as opposite-sex couples.
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Texas Lynn
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Exactly what I did when I fell in love with my wife. Someone on another thread mentioned "praying every night"---I was praying every minute and received the answer. Who else but the Almighty could have been the one "who put the bomp in the bompalompalomp, who put the ram in the ramalamadingdong" and "he made my Baby fall in love with me!" For homosexuals, God ordains that we be true to ourselves and follow where God directs us; that we incur the wrath of Christ-exploiting politicians in the process is but more of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune we endure.
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Texas Lynn
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Very true. Under the present culture, civil rights protections need to be extended to those of minority orientation as well. Incidents of harrassment, exploitation, and discrimination need to be addressed in other ways besides the usual way from the 1950s, that of blaming the victim.
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