Homosexual men = weak, effeminate?

[royboy]

Gay men these days are generally seen as weak, effeminate, etc.

How did this image come about?


In ancient greece for example. Such macho, hardcore, warriors like the spartans didn't see it as imasculating at all.

My memory on the details isn't to good.

From the age of 8 they would be sent into the wilderness with basics like a knife and a blanket, and were expected to fend for themselves.

When they reached the age of twelve (?) those who survived, were assigned a male mentor who taught them weapons, and various rules, about life, etc. The mentor also acted as the young boys lover.

Once the males reached 25 or so, they were then expected to find a female wife (spartan females were also expected to excel in all things physical. They were also encouraged to engage in female/female sex).

So I'm just curious how our notions of sissy gay men came about when gay men of the past were feared for their machismo.

 

[Lion of Narnia]

In the ancient world, the concept of older, more masculine (and dominant) partner paired with a adolescent, more feminine (or androgenous) boy was the expected norm. In fact it was seen as shameful for a mature Greek (or Roman) man to be paired with another man of his own age (or even older). Even in the Spartan model, the physical relationship between mature man and teenage boy was expected to cease when the boy reached maturity-where he in turn would seek out a teenager of his own.

The western model of pederatry continues, especially in our sub-cultures that have emphazed "classical" culture (hmmm, sex-segregated boarding schools emphazing all that latin and greek literature, intentional???)

 

[Jet Black]

This sort of thinking also occured in the Japanese Samurai era, where women were viewed as below worth, and just there for breeding.

 

[royboy]

Jet Black,

The Samurai also had this homosexual culture?


But I was wondering if someone could sort of do a sort of timeline, in regards to the associations with warrior culture, to sissy men.

 

[burrow_owl]

Our conception of the effiminate gay man is actually quite consistent with the conceptions that permeated the Greek world; as a general matter, you're right that the man-boy thing was OK in ancient Greece, but it was subject to all kinds of codes and social decorum. One of these requirements was that the relationship couldn't get too sexual. Since the Greeks' socioethical code was all about balance, one who was too into sex was seen as (you guessed it) effeminate and womanish.

This is strangely consistent with the classic American stereotype of the gay man as oversexed, and therefore effeminate.

 

[Jet Black]

Jet Black,

The Samurai also had this homosexual culture?

kind of, but not a sissy one. they viewed women as below worth, and this led to alot of homosexual samurai (well, I suppose bisexual really). they still had wives, but they were just there to clean the tables and provide them with sons.

 

[royboy]

Our conception of the effiminate gay man is actually quite consistent with the conceptions that permeated the Greek world; as a general matter, you're right that the man-boy thing was OK in ancient Greece, but it was subject to all kinds of codes and social decorum. One of these requirements was that the relationship couldn't get too sexual. Since the Greeks' socioethical code was all about balance, one who was too into sex was seen as (you guessed it) effeminate and womanish.

This is strangely consistent with the classic American stereotype of the gay man as oversexed, and therefore effeminate.

This is strangely consistent with the classic American stereotype of the gay man as oversexed, and therefore effeminate.

But while the american stereotype maybe consistent with the greek opinions of gays who were effeminate, it's missing the balance that is provided by the image of the gay warrior. How did this come to be?

 

[ps139]

I believe that the effeminate attitude of modern gays is due to the influence of our type of culture. For example, the Spartans and Samurai were warriors....they lived in a warrior culture, where physical strength and battlefield prowess were viewed as the most noble characteristics. Today, especially in America, everyone is pampered with luxuries unimaginable to an ancient mind. We have sofas to lounge on while we watch tv, all sorts of medical technologies to reduce pain, machines to do our heavy lifting, thermal packets to put in our waterproof gloves when we go out in the snow, mattresses that conform to the body for maximum comfort, LazyBoy chairs and recliners, day spas and bubble baths, and all sorts of technologies that had made us soft. If we picked at random 100 modern men and 100 ancient men to go at it in a huge fistfight, we would lose really really quickly. Also, violence for any reason is shunned in our culture....if two people are in an argument, and after the most scathing and personal attacks by person A, person B raises a hand and strikes, modern justice holds person B at fault. Our culture, with the exception of sports, does not encourage aggressive, wild, physically competitive behavior. In school, boys get into more trouble because their games are wild. A fun game for boys involves some sort of quest to hunt down the bad guy, loud noise, a pretend explosion of some sort. Girls play house and tea party, remaining in the same place and being quiet. The boys are reprimanded and the girls are rewarded. Of all of my friends, I know 2 who are in the armed forces. In ancient times, I might know 2 who weren't in the military profession. So, if heterosexual men have become more effeminate in the modern age, it logically follows that homosexual men would be that much more effeminate. A great book which discusses the effeminization (if thats a word) of modern men is "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. I'm reading it now and it is so insightful on the problems modern men are facing. I know this is my first post and that endorsing is frowned upon, but I feel that this book is very relevant to your topic (although it does not really discuss homosexuals at length) and it is based on a firm Christian foundation.

 

[royboy]

I believe that the effeminate attitude of modern gays is due to the influence of our type of culture. For example, the Spartans and Samurai were warriors....they lived in a warrior culture, where physical strength and battlefield prowess were viewed as the most noble characteristics. Today, especially in America, everyone is pampered with luxuries unimaginable to an ancient mind. We have sofas to lounge on while we watch tv, all sorts of medical technologies to reduce pain, machines to do our heavy lifting, thermal packets to put in our waterproof gloves when we go out in the snow, mattresses that conform to the body for maximum comfort, LazyBoy chairs and recliners, day spas and bubble baths, and all sorts of technologies that had made us soft. If we picked at random 100 modern men and 100 ancient men to go at it in a huge fistfight, we would lose really really quickly. Also, violence for any reason is shunned in our culture....if two people are in an argument, and after the most scathing and personal attacks by person A, person B raises a hand and strikes, modern justice holds person B at fault. Our culture, with the exception of sports, does not encourage aggressive, wild, physically competitive behavior. In school, boys get into more trouble because their games are wild. A fun game for boys involves some sort of quest to hunt down the bad guy, loud noise, a pretend explosion of some sort. Girls play house and tea party, remaining in the same place and being quiet. The boys are reprimanded and the girls are rewarded. Of all of my friends, I know 2 who are in the armed forces. In ancient times, I might know 2 who weren't in the military profession. So, if heterosexual men have become more effeminate in the modern age, it logically follows that homosexual men would be that much more effeminate. A great book which discusses the effeminization (if thats a word) of modern men is "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. I'm reading it now and it is so insightful on the problems modern men are facing. I know this is my first post and that endorsing is frowned upon, but I feel that this book is very relevant to your topic (although it does not really discuss homosexuals at length) and it is based on a firm Christian foundation.

Thankyou.

Only recently were gays allowed in the armed forces. This seems funny when looking back at the successful armies like the greeks and the romans who allowed such activities.

Around when was it decided that gays were not welcome in the various armies?

 

[jayem]

Homosexuals have served in the militaries of all countries for as long as militaries have existed. Generally, they've been closeted. (another book reference: "Conduct Unbecoming," by Randy Shilts. The history of homosexuals in the U.S military going back to revolutionary times.) The effeminate homosexual male is just a stereotype, and not true of all gays. A gay friend of mine from high school served in the Army for about 7 years back in the 70's, was an officer in the MPs, and would seem to be arrow straight. A gay friend of my wife is a police officer, and not effeminate in the least. In fact, when I think about the dozen or so people that I know personally to be homosexual, only 3 have affected mannerisms--2 are lesbians who are admittedly very mannish. But the stereotype seems to be what people expect.

 

[ps139]

Jayem, you have your experience, I have mine. Every single homosexual man I know is very effeminate. And I know one lesbian, who is very mannish. So where does that leave us? The fact is that each of our personal experiences is too small a sample to draw a conclusion from. "The stereotype seems to be what people expect"...I think the stereotype is there for a reason, and can be more aptly defined as "The stereotype seems to be what most people generally experience."

 

[tcampen]

I see both, but a slightly higher rater of being effeminent among gay men than strait men. I don't have a problem with it, just my observations.

 

[TruthTraveler]

Yup, most Homosexual men = effeminate but not always weak
I saw two buff gay guys on CBN but they walked super feminine.

Plus I saw a former-homosexual(married with two kids and has his own Church)on CBN he didn't sound gay but he had on some pirate shirt with ruffels. LOL

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Yup, most Homosexual men = effeminate but not always weak

Untrue.

 

[royboy]

Okay, so we have discussed perceptions of gays in todays society, now let's talk about how this came to be.

Greek warriors did it. Nobody called a spartan effeminate as they were ramming a spear into someone.

Romans did it. Don't know much about the romans and gays.

That's where my knowledge of macho gays ends.

So what happened next? Which society then perceived homosexuality as shameful?

That's kind of what I was hoping to discuss. Where are all the history buffs?

When did the openly gay warrior cease to be?

 

[TruthTraveler]

That's kind of what I was hoping to discuss. Where are all the history buffs?

I don't think you'll get an answer since this is a Christian Forum.

 

[royboy]

I don't think you'll get an answer since this is a Christian Forum.

I go post it on some gay forum.