Homophobes

[pescador]

The book of Romans has once again becoming the focus of a local church. Despite the fact that chapter one focuses on the sinful natures aroused by idolatry first, then the shameful lusts that produce unnatural sexual relations, then the depraved mind that results in "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity...envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice", etc. it is amazing to me that such sins as murder(!) are ignored by them, choosing instead to attack LGBTs instead. However, let's look at what Romans really says about "homosexuality"...

The emphasis is on people who are consumed with extreme lust, so much so that they commit "shameful" acts with others of the same gender. This doesn't describe LGBTs who love one another and have normal, romantic sex, any more than calling me a heterosexual means that I am a sex addict. If people are consumed with lust and commit "shameful" acts it's because it's shameful for a heterosexual to be so driven that they aren't content with normal sexual relations and can't restrain themselves. If an LGBT has sex with a partner whom they love, why is that shameful?


Secondly, why is that of so much concern to people?? Personally I don't care what sexual relations people have; I'm concerned that they love each other (which is what God is concerned with, after all). There are many activities with which God is displeased and I believe that same-sex behavior is near the bottom. The second commandment describes idolatry, the sixth through the tenth describe murder, adultery, theft, false testimony, and covetousness. Homosexuality isn't mentioned, and Jesus never mentioned it. (Only Paul wrote about it, in Romans and 1 Corinthians, where it's included with idolaters, adulterers, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers, in a description of the unsaved, which of course nobody includes in the discussion. He also follows it with saying that "everything is lawful for me".)


I know that people (homophobes) will come "out of the woodwork" filled with rage concerning this post, forgetting the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves and leave judgment to God, but I think it's worth a discussion among the rest of us. If you want to flame me, be my guest; I could care less. A fit of rage is a sin and I Corinthians 6 says that "all things are lawful for me" (meaning every believer). Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.

 

[BryanW92]

I have a good friend who has been cheating on his wife for about a year. He loves his wife and loves his girlfriend. He does not consider his adultery shameful because both women are happy and so is he.

Now, from a biological perspective, what he is doing is natural and is even beneficial. Is that sin to you? Why is it anyone's business what he does?

The answer, of course, is that the liberal mind says that God is humanocentric. He orbits around our happiness, ready to plug in where we are weak and NEVER judging us for our behaviors. The Pro-LGBT Christian claims that "it is good as long as the two people love each other." The Pro-adultery Christian can say the same thing because the bible is full of men with more than one wife, but it only through the puritanical short-sightedness of our legal system that we do not permit marriage between more than two people.

The bottom line is that no one cares if you like to have sex with other men. But, God does because he built our biology a certain way. He says so in the bible. It is a sin and we don't want our pastors to be people who give in to a specific sin in such a powerful way that they identify themselves by the sin! You don't see other sinners wearing PRIDE t-shirts proclaiming that adultery, theft, drunkenness are a source of PRIDE (which is, of course, the greatest of sins).

 

[BryanW92]

Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.[/SIZE]

Nothing at all. I love my brother, but we don't have sex. I love the guys in my small group, but we don't have sex. I have a very close friend who has been with me through thick and thin for 30 years. We've never had sex. You gays make it out be about love, but what you really demand is for acceptance of your sex acts. Just watch a gay PRIDE parade to see what the focus is.

 

[BryanW92]

forgetting the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves and leave judgment to God

Words mean things. Look up "judgment" and you'll see that the judgment of God includes punishment. We are told to not punish, but we are told to correct when scripture demands it.

Scripture also says this: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. "

 

[A Rhys]

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Malachi 3:6
I the LORD do not change.

And there ya have it. What was abominable to God then is abominable to God now.

 

[thesunisout]

The book of Romans has once again becoming the focus of a local church. Despite the fact that chapter one focuses on the sinful natures aroused by idolatry first, then the shameful lusts that produce unnatural sexual relations, then the depraved mind that results in "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity...envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice", etc. it is amazing to me that such sins as murder(!) are ignored by them, choosing instead to attack LGBTs instead. However, let's look at what Romans really says about "homosexuality"...

The emphasis is on people who are consumed with extreme lust, so much so that they commit "shameful" acts with others of the same gender. This doesn't describe LGBTs who love one another and have normal, romantic sex, any more than calling me a heterosexual means that I am a sex addict. If people are consumed with lust and commit "shameful" acts it's because it's shameful for a heterosexual to be so driven that they aren't content with normal sexual relations and can't restrain themselves. If an LGBT has sex with a partner whom they love, why is that shameful?


Secondly, why is that of so much concern to people?? Personally I don't care what sexual relations people have; I'm concerned that they love each other (which is what God is concerned with, after all). There are many activities with which God is displeased and I believe that same-sex behavior is near the bottom. The second commandment describes idolatry, the sixth through the tenth describe murder, adultery, theft, false testimony, and covetousness. Homosexuality isn't mentioned, and Jesus never mentioned it. (Only Paul wrote about it, in Romans and 1 Corinthians, where it's included with idolaters, adulterers, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers, in a description of the unsaved, which of course nobody includes in the discussion. He also follows it with saying that "everything is lawful for me".)


I know that people (homophobes) will come "out of the woodwork" filled with rage concerning this post, forgetting the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves and leave judgment to God, but I think it's worth a discussion among the rest of us. If you want to flame me, be my guest; I could care less. A fit of rage is a sin and I Corinthians 6 says that "all things are lawful for me" (meaning every believer). Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.

The scripture is crystal clear that homosexuality is a sin; to live in denial of that and to compromise the scripture to support your case is in my opinion the greater sin.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[miamited]

Hi pescador,

You posted: Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.

There is nothing wrong with anyone loving anyone else. As a matter of fact, God commands us to love others. However, the problems arise when we define 'love' as 'sex'.

If we define 'love' as 'sex', then wouldn't all rapists really just be showing love to their victim?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[abysmul]

If we define 'love' as 'sex', then wouldn't all rapists really just be showing love to their victim?

Good point sir. Isn't this what the pedophiles claim, that they are not hurting but loving the children?

 

[miamited]

Good point sir. Isn't this what the pedophiles claim, that they are not hurting but loving the children?

Hi abysmul,

Exactly my point. Love is not sex and sex is not love. Love is caring for and about someone else's well being often over our own. It seems to me that if someone loves another then the last thing they would want is to pull that other person down into the pit with them. Sex is merely one manifestation of love, but only when enjoyed within the context for which God intended it to be shared. Otherwise it's just us seeking to gratify the desires of our flesh. Whether it be with animals, same sex relationships, self-gratification, pedophilia or non-consensual sexual relations.

Now, it is understood that many won't agree with this position, but...

Jesus was pretty clear that those of the world do not understand the things of the Spirit for they are spiritually discerned.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[pescador]

The multiple responses from BryanW92 are pretty much what I expected from him, judging by his other posts. He assumes that I am gay, which I'm not. I've been happily married for many years, am a father and a grandfather and have never had a homosexual experience in my life. I didn't state this in the OP on purpose, since people such as Bryan would assume from their closed minds that a heterosexual couldn't say such things. So that point has been made: the judgment from such a person is predetermined, just as it was for the priest and Levite who passed by their neighbor.

Second, God expressedly forbade adultery under the law, yet Jesus forgave the woman who was caught in the act of adultery. Again, Bryan assumes that I approve of adultery which is not only way off topic but also untrue. Again, judgment is made from a judgmental heart and has no basis in fact or truth. We are commanded to love our neighbor -- all our neighbors, not just some of them.


A Rhys quotes Leviticus -- the law -- which has no relevance since Christians have died to the law and are alive in Christ. thesunisout responds similarly. The law has no relevance unless you are a Jew and live under the Old Covenant. If you follow the law of God, not only are you denying Christ but you had better keep all God's commandments. IF you have a ham sandwich you are as guilty in God's eyes under the law as the LGBTs you condemn by the law.


miamited goes even farther afield, equating love and sex and bringing rape into the discussion. Equating rape and homosexual sex between consenting partners is almost as far from logic and truth as you can get. I say almost because abysmul brings pedophilia into the discussion. Why not compare beastiality with looking at a woman lustfully while you're at it? It is tragic where some let their minds take them.


miamited saves the day in his second post, saying "Love is not sex and sex is not love. Love is caring for and about someone else's well being often over our own. It seems to me that if someone loves another then the last thing they would want is to pull that other person down into the pit with them. Sex is merely one manifestation of love, but only when enjoyed within the context for which God intended it to be shared. Otherwise it's just us seeking to gratify the desires of our flesh." The question is: is it wrong to love somebody of the same sex? I don't care what goes on in the bedrooms of anyone else, whether they're gay or not. (What goes on in the bedrooms of "straight" people? Is it always "conventional" (biblical) intercourse? Give me a break!!)


Again, if people love others of the same gender, why are some so quick to judge them and condemn them to hell while remaining silent about other sins that are far more destructive to society? Who is guilty of the greater sin? (Hint: Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery, but her judges left in shame and humiliation.)

And please, stay on topic if you can.

 

[GenetoJean]

I have a good friend who has been cheating on his wife for about a year. He loves his wife and loves his girlfriend. He does not consider his adultery shameful because both women are happy and so is he.

Now, from a biological perspective, what he is doing is natural and is even beneficial. Is that sin to you? Why is it anyone's business what he does?

Because what he is doing is harmful to his wife; a person who did not give consent to be in the harmful relationship.

The answer, of course, is that the liberal mind says that God is humanocentric. He orbits around our happiness, ready to plug in where we are weak and NEVER judging us for our behaviors. The Pro-LGBT Christian claims that "it is good as long as the two people love each other." The Pro-adultery Christian can say the same thing because the bible is full of men with more than one wife, but it only through the puritanical short-sightedness of our legal system that we do not permit marriage between more than two people.

Polygamy and aldultry are two seperate things. In polygamy all of the spouses know about the other spouses and agree; in adultry they dont.

The bottom line is that no one cares if you like to have sex with other men. But, God does because he built our biology a certain way. He says so in the bible. It is a sin and we don't want our pastors to be people who give in to a specific sin in such a powerful way that they identify themselves by the sin! You don't see other sinners wearing PRIDE t-shirts proclaiming that adultery, theft, drunkenness are a source of PRIDE (which is, of course, the greatest of sins).

Most other sinners are doing things to others without their consent. Not the same.

 

[GenetoJean]

Nothing at all. I love my brother, but we don't have sex. I love the guys in my small group, but we don't have sex. I have a very close friend who has been with me through thick and thin for 30 years. We've never had sex. You gays make it out be about love, but what you really demand is for acceptance of your sex acts. Just watch a gay PRIDE parade to see what the focus is.

I agree pride parades do get pretty disgusting but there are many people who are homosexual that dont agree with that either.

 

[GenetoJean]

Words mean things. Look up "judgment" and you'll see that the judgment of God includes punishment. We are told to not punish, but we are told to correct when scripture demands it.

Scripture also says this: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. "

Scripture says scripture is true. A source cant be a source for its own validity.

 

[GenetoJean]

Good point sir. Isn't this what the pedophiles claim, that they are not hurting but loving the children?

They can claim it but children cant consent so it is not the same.

 

[peterandrewj]

Hi pescador,

There you go again defending sinners from the judgment of the righteous. I don't believe you expected to provoke love by your comments, which makes me wonder if you might be expressing pain, only because you recently broke away from your church over similar conflicts.

I don't think you're disputing homosexuality is sin, but speaking of christians judging the world. I agree except you used Romans to compare sins, and it came pretty close to saying homosexuality is the same corruption as hetrosexuality.

I think the world loves it's own. They support gays in ways I as a christian can't. When I speak of righteous judgment, it's for my brother's walk with Jesus, and not in support of gays. I guess there's a thin line between defending sinners and supporting them.

I just want to say we're not against you. God builds us up with mercy. Keep the faith.

 

[BryanW92]

Scripture says scripture is true. A source cant be a source for its own validity.

Scripture is the exception to that rule. You can't "prove" that scripture is true without believing what is in scripture. Since it is inerrant and infallible, then it can serve as its own proof.

If it isn't inerrant and infallible, then why waste our time with it because that would just make it bad literature and the history of an insignificant people.

 

[BryanW92]

I agree pride parades do get pretty disgusting but there are many people who are homosexual that dont agree with that either.

What percentage? Because almost all gun owners think that people who go on shooting sprees should be shot dead instantly, but we all get painted with the "crazed shooter" brush every time one of those psychos opens fire.

The difference is that I see gun owners publicly saying that these people are insane and must be stopped. Where is the public gay outrage against the PRIDE parade obscenities?

 

[GenetoJean]

What percentage? Because almost all gun owners think that people who go on shooting sprees should be shot dead instantly, but we all get painted with the "crazed shooter" brush every time one of those psychos opens fire.

The difference is that I see gun owners publicly saying that these people are insane and must be stopped. Where is the public gay outrage against the PRIDE parade obscenities?

Unfortunately they dont have the wherewithal to speak up. I speak up but others dont, I will not try to defend them but just stating what my experiences are.

 

[GenetoJean]

Scripture is the exception to that rule. You can't "prove" that scripture is true without believing what is in scripture. Since it is inerrant and infallible, then it can serve as its own proof.

If it isn't inerrant and infallible, then why waste our time with it because that would just make it bad literature and the history of an insignificant people.

I use it as a reference, my faith in God and Christ is in God and Christ, not in a bunch of seperate stories written by men, collected by men, and translated by men. I believe God enfluenced what was written in the Bible but didnt dictate it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The bible not society sets the rules which we are to live by. The bible is very clear Homosexuality is a sin. We have to live by the standards of God's word, not what people think is acceptable.