Home: No Place for Bible Study

[lawtonfogle]

So you posted a link to a book review, an article that claims that unidentified aircraft were near Bush's ranch mostly quoting an opposing source, and an editorial that is factually accurate: (soy does contain amounts of estrogen [that may cause breast cancer, and it could be generally unhealthy)].

I do not agree with that editorial, but whatever. It is the sort of semi-shocking thing people want to print -- like the BBC printing vaguely apologistic pieces for terrorists.

And as another note: you know every newspaper writes about UFOs from time to time, it just happens.



"Dodgiest source of current events." Your quote is quite dramatic.

Of course it is a conservative news site... So what?

"Dodgiest" is not the right word to describe it.

"News that generally disagrees with my opinions" would work.

That is how I refer to Amy Goodman's Democracy Now.



Poisoning the well is a 'logical fallacy' because even if you disagree with some of what the source has done the burden still exists for you to prove that the article is untrue.

In the case, everyone failed to do that.

A logical fallacy was committed -- and it was not even beneficial to the discussion because it turns out the source checks out.



Yeah, but why were questions pertaining to the nature of the gathering posed? It is irrelevant.

This also happened in an area of America that is known for being extraordinarily liberal.

Have atheists ever been unethically harrassed by Christian law enforcers? Probably.

Is it possible that Christians would face similar harassments? Probably.

Does my logic check out for you, sir?



Most media is liberally bent if we view it from an American definition of liberal and conservative.

Would you contend this statement?

We have the burden to prove it is untrue?

New Netpix Service Sends Unlimited Photographs For Monthly Fee | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Sun Goes Out For A Few Seconds | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

The please prove these untrue.

You notice most people would just laugh, because they understand the Onion is just crazy. A similar reaction is had by others by WND, because they are biased on their reporting to the point you have to be careful if you believe what you read. It doesn't take a lawyer to turn one story into a complete other (though they are the best at it).

snopes.com: Horse Thief Ancestor

Yes the whole horse theft is false, but the story listed give a great example of how you can completely slant a story while still giving the facts. This is what WND has been accused of, and proof of it has been given in many articles.

 

[SallyNow]

The fact that they are being told that they need a major use permit, not some type of permit for religious meetings, strongly indicates the complaint has nothing to do with religion. Instead, it sounds as if it is likely due to a combination of noise and parking/traffic flow problems.

That is what it appears, but everything is so light on detail.

I foudn it interesting that the truth of the source was doubted in most of the posts in this thread.

It is odd to see this... Especially as later on it got confirmed as being a true story.

There is a large 'poisoning of the well' effect on all conservative sources, it seems.

There isn't a poisoing of the well effect going on. There is a movement of people who like their news to clarify facts and not just be full of vague assumptions. The articles about this case are really light on detail. Is the Major Use Permit being demanded because this Bible study meeting is causing too many cars to park on the road, which would be a traffic-safety issue? Is it because there's some regulation that Bible studies (as opposed to math study parties) have to have special permits, which would be a constitutional issue? Is it because one neighbor complained a bunch of times because he can't get into his driveway on Tuesdays because the Bible study group's cars are using his driveway, which would be trespassing issue?

 

[b&wpac4]

There isn't a poisoing of the well effect going on. There is a movement of people who like their news to clarify facts and not just be full of vague assumptions. The articles about this case are really light on detail. Is the Major Use Permit being demanded because this Bible study meeting is causing too many cars to park on the road, which would be a traffic-safety issue? Is it because there's some regulation that Bible studies (as opposed to math study parties) have to have special permits, which would be a constitutional issue? Is it because one neighbor complained a bunch of times because he can't get into his driveway on Tuesdays because the Bible study group's cars are using his driveway, which would be trespassing issue?

and there are people on here that have already made up their mind that it simply doesn't matter what the details are, they see persecution no matter what.

 

[morningstar2651]

So...are they going door to door asking about bible studies, or are we not hearing the whole story?

 

[b&wpac4]

So...are they going door to door asking about bible studies, or are we not hearing the whole story?

My guess is that they are causing parking or noise problems for their neighbors and the county stepped in due to complaints.

 

[Maren]

My guess is that they are causing parking or noise problems for their neighbors and the county stepped in due to complaints.

Actually, found a San Diego TV station that says the entire reason for this is because of parking.

Every Tuesday night about 15 people drive to Jones’ Bonita home to eat dinner and discuss the Bible. They usually park on Jones' property, he said, but sometimes that parking spills out into the cul-de-sac.Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars.

As for the reasons the questions were asked,

Wallar said it's the officer’s job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones’ house to decide what part of county code the event falls under."The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area," Waller said.That gray area may be causing the problem. Wallar said the county only cares about how any event impacts the surrounding neighborhood."We want to make sure -- whether they're on a public road or a private road -- that they're parking safely; that we can get fire trucks in; that we can get police vehicles in," Waller said.

So, this entire controversy has nothing to do with religion and is instead solely about parking. Unfortunately, details are still pretty light, as we still aren't hearing anything from the neighbors but only the Pastor's story and why the county investigated the way they did.

 

[Shane Roach]

People, this is the exact story that was reported on their channel 10 news. This is not a case of biased sources. At least one of you knew this going into this thread.

The citation from the county is shown in the video from Ch 10, and the story makes it very clear why they are keeping their names out of the news for now. The average attendance to these Bible studies was around 15.

There are not to be laws restricting people's ability to peacefully assemble, nor restricting freedom of speech or religion. This is a violation, whatever other facts may come to light.

The nature of the anti-Christian bias of this site is showing deeply.

If it were not about religion, the paperwork would be about parking, not religious assembly.

 

[Verv]

The problem with sites like wnd, lifesite, newsmax, and onenewsnow is how they all practice outright deception....and the loyal fan base knows this but don't care. Look at this story....they try to spin it to make it look like Christians are targeted. What's so Christian about active deception?

As for the last claim in this post, please start a thread defending that claim and post the link here. I'm really curious to see how that claim is supported.

I think that you aren't right on this issue, and if I have more time after Finals I will make the post.

WND and Newsmax are both 'conservative.' Out of curiosity, what are the others?

And what would you consider the Huffington Post?

We have the burden to prove it is untrue?

New Netpix Service Sends Unlimited Photographs For Monthly Fee | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Sun Goes Out For A Few Seconds | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

The please prove these untrue.

You notice most people would just laugh, because they understand the Onion is just crazy. A similar reaction is had by others by WND, because they are biased on their reporting to the point you have to be careful if you believe what you read. It doesn't take a lawyer to turn one story into a complete other (though they are the best at it).

snopes.com: Horse Thief Ancestor

Yes the whole horse theft is false, but the story listed give a great example of how you can completely slant a story while still giving the facts. This is what WND has been accused of, and proof of it has been given in many articles.

Well, you know, the Onion is purely about comedy.

WND reports things from a conservative perspective as much as the BBC reports them from a liberal perspective.

And I guess the horse thief thing is interesting.

How do you feel about all news sites sometimes carrying foolish articles?

 

[b&wpac4]

People, this is the exact story that was reported on their channel 10 news. This is not a case of biased sources. At least one of you knew this going into this thread.

The citation from the county is shown in the video from Ch 10, and the story makes it very clear why they are keeping their names out of the news for now. The average attendance to these Bible studies was around 15.

There are not to be laws restricting people's ability to peacefully assemble, nor restricting freedom of speech or religion. This is a violation, whatever other facts may come to light.

The nature of the anti-Christian bias of this site is showing deeply.

If it were not about religion, the paperwork would be about parking, not religious assembly.

The news story linked above your post says it is exactly about parking. The anti-non-Christian bias in your posts show deeply.

You can't peacefully assemble if it brings your entire neighborhood to a standstill when people don't want you to unless you get authorization from the city/county/state/whatever and that authorization in this case is a permit. You couldn't hold Bible study in the middle of the Washington DC beltway, and the city clearing you off is not a violation of your rights. You have the right to assemble, but you must follow the laws regarding that.

In the end, I don't think you even care what the details are. You only see Bible Study Stopped and that's the end for you. Would you be so up in arms if the same exact scenario played out but it was a Tupperware gathering each week? Or a weekly party with heavy drinking? Or a Muslim study group?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

The charge of bias is too twilight zone weird.

People, this is the exact story that was reported on their channel 10 news. This is not a case of biased sources. At least one of you knew this going into this thread.

The citation from the county is shown in the video from Ch 10, and the story makes it very clear why they are keeping their names out of the news for now. The average attendance to these Bible studies was around 15.

There are not to be laws restricting people's ability to peacefully assemble, nor restricting freedom of speech or religion. This is a violation, whatever other facts may come to light.

The nature of the anti-Christian bias of this site is showing deeply.

If it were not about religion, the paperwork would be about parking, not religious assembly.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Wnd etc are Christian Right socially conservative rags that practice deception like fish practice swimming. The op story is an excellent example because it tries to say the group is being harassed because they are Christian when really it doesn't have anything to do with that. It could've been a group of bird watchers and the complaint about parking would be the same but wnd fabricates Christian persecution. Ironically, if they were a group of good witnesses they wouldve found a way to car pool and been respectful of the neighbors....especially in a cul de sac.


As for the media, it is extremely pro-government...which is why our news is a joke compared to many other outlets across the globe. As for Huffington, don't read it because it has a fundamentally left wing bias. But, I've not seen it commit the same level of egregious deceptions as found on rags like wnd.


I see another claim here about "liberal" media with no supporting evidence. If one does not have the time to support a claim then how can one have time to make a claim?

I think that you aren't right on this issue, and if I have more time after Finals I will make the post.

WND and Newsmax are both 'conservative.' Out of curiosity, what are the others?

And what would you consider the Huffington Post?



Well, you know, the Onion is purely about comedy.

WND reports things from a conservative perspective as much as the BBC reports them from a liberal perspective.

And I guess the horse thief thing is interesting.

How do you feel about all news sites sometimes carrying foolish articles?

[BIBLE][/BIBLE]

 

[Shane Roach]

The news story linked above your post says it is exactly about parking. The anti-non-Christian bias in your posts show deeply.

You can't peacefully assemble if it brings your entire neighborhood to a standstill when people don't want you to unless you get authorization from the city/county/state/whatever and that authorization in this case is a permit. You couldn't hold Bible study in the middle of the Washington DC beltway, and the city clearing you off is not a violation of your rights. You have the right to assemble, but you must follow the laws regarding that.

In the end, I don't think you even care what the details are. You only see Bible Study Stopped and that's the end for you. Would you be so up in arms if the same exact scenario played out but it was a Tupperware gathering each week? Or a weekly party with heavy drinking? Or a Muslim study group?

No, the above link does not say it is about parking. It says the county is claiming it got a single report complaining about parking, and instead of going to address parking issues, chose to try to shut down the Bible study based on issues not related to the parking. Further, the paperwork stating it was about religious gathering and not parking is available from the same channel 10 reporting.

If it were about parking, they could simply asked them to stop parking so many cars in the street and consider carpooling.

 

[b&wpac4]

No, the above link does not say it is about parking. It says the county is claiming it got a single report complaining about parking, and instead of going to address parking issues, chose to try to shut down the Bible study based on issues not related to the parking. Further, the paperwork stating it was about religious gathering and not parking is available from the same channel 10 reporting.

If it were about parking, they could simply asked them to stop parking so many cars in the street and consider carpooling.

County Official Defends Home Bible Study Citation - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

"Obviously, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you exactly what was said. However, what our officer was trying to do is establish what the use is so that we know what regulations to actually utilize," explained Chandra Wallar of the county's land use and environment group.Wallar said it's the officer’s job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones’ house to decide what part of county code the event falls under."The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area," Waller said.That gray area may be causing the problem. Wallar said the county only cares about how any event impacts the surrounding neighborhood.

Jones' attorneys told 10News it sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning.In April, Jones received a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies.""They can stop religious activities in the courthouses and that but they're trying to stop prayer in my house," Jones complained."We honestly don't care what people do inside their homes. That's their business. That's their private right," Wallar said.

If you listen to the video on the following link, it says the county is backing off.

Pastor Fights County Over Permit For Home Bible Study - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego


But, the details and outcome doesn't really matter. It was obviously the work of anti-Christians trying to shut down Bible study in this country because you can't feel like you are being persecuted if, in the end, the system works as intended.

 

[b&wpac4]

Seems like a poorly written law and someone in the government being a bit too overzealous about enforcing it then. My bet is that there will be a public backlash and the overzealous official will back off and say it was all a big misunderstanding.

Just felt like quoting myself to give myself a pat on the back for basically being right.
As we can see, the government official is now starting to back off and I bet the rest of it is resolved quietly with the pastor being told to make sure all the cars stay on his driveway.

 

[Shane Roach]

So to you, the county, which has yet to acknowledge it was in the wrong, will eventually back off, and that will suddenly transform this attempt to shut down a Bible study into a legitimate action?

People should not have to get into a public wrestling match with the government over such issues. It is the attitudes of folks like yourselves and the rest of the people defending this behavior on this thread that encourages officials to behave this way to begin with, and to pretend it is not wrong as soon as someone finally breaks down and admits it WAS wrong is baffling logic.

If the issue was about parking all along, then it should have remained about parking all along.

 

[b&wpac4]

So to you, the county, which has yet to acknowledge it was in the wrong, will eventually back off, and that will suddenly transform this attempt to shut down a Bible study into a legitimate action?

People should not have to get into a public wrestling match with the government over such issues. It is the attitudes of folks like yourselves and the rest of the people defending this behavior on this thread that encourages officials to behave this way to begin with, and to pretend it is not wrong as soon as someone finally breaks down and admits it WAS wrong is baffling logic.

If the issue was about parking all along, then it should have remained about parking all along.

The issue is that the Government, the police, the legislature, nobody in fact is ever going to be 100% right with what they do. Why do you hold these people to a standard where if they make an error in judgment and react too harshly or improperly to something, it is automatically persecution. I'm sure other people have had the exact same problem, but because it was a Tupperware group or a book club, you wouldn't cry persecution and suggest that the government was out to shut down poor pastor's Bible group.

I am willing to give the government a chance to sort out the problems and present the case it makes against people before I jump to conclusions. I understand that you see the world as a giant battlefield where there is Christians against The World in a spiritual battle, but I don't and won't. People make mistakes and I don't assume the worst as soon as they do.

As I said, I doubt you'd say anything if this was a Torah study group by a Jewish rabbi. I also doubt there would be this much news coverage and outrage.

 

[b&wpac4]

Also, the Government may not be in the wrong and thus have nothing to admit wrongdoing about. If it is a parking issue, and they have decided to make an exception for this pastor, they did not do anything WRONG. What they did was allow him to continue his group while not requiring a permit in that case. But they should admit they were wrong to enforce the laws as written?

 

[Shane Roach]

This was not some highly complex issue that should have required a debate to settle. Some folks complained about parking. The government agent tried to abuse laws meant for establishing safe and effective use of large amounts of land to shut down a Bible study consisting of 15 people on average.

People who are forever trying to convince Christians that if there were a real danger, they would stand beside us, instead make excuse after excuse for this outrage, and many openly mock those of us who have deep concerns.

It was wrong, just like Roe V. Wade was wrong, just like controls on prayer in school is wrong, just like promulgating inappropriate content is wrong. The list of direct attacks on the church goes on and on.

Folks had an opportunity here to show what they really are made of when it comes to standing side by side with their neighbors when the government steps way out of line. Folks took that opportunity. I don't think people will forget it either, nor mistake the intentions.

 

[b&wpac4]

Remove the chip from your shoulder and start seeing all men as your brothers on this Earth, just trying to make it though their lives and we can have a discussion. As it stands, I'm still sure you wouldn't say a peep were it a rabbi's Torah study group that was broken up because it isn't an attack on the church, but someone else.

I do care if this is a violation of the first amendment, but I also care about the facts of the case in determining if it is a violation. I care about facts and the truth. But according to you I should just jump on the persecution bandwagon the minute it rolls up to my door and I will not.

 

[Shane Roach]

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. You have been shown an example of injustice, and have chosen to excuse it.

Christians habitually are against things like breaking up religious gatherings of other religions as well. I think you'd have a hard time finding many Christians who would support such an action. It's actually a fairly outlandish accusation.