Holy Trinity

[thedream233]

Can someone please explain what the holy trinity is, and list some bible verses that support the definition? I really had trouble with this when I was a christian because Jesus and God seemed like two separate beings.

 

[FrAnthony]

Can someone please explain what the holy trinity is, and list some bible verses that support the definition? I really had trouble with this when I was a christian because Jesus and God seemed like two separate beings.

God bless you in your journey for truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

 

[Merlin]

Hello,

There are 3 distinct aspects of God.
We humans, trying to understand that which is not human, describe God with our limited understanding.

God Himself describes Himself in human-like terms too.

God the father, for instance.
God describes Himself as a loving father.
Jesus, a Son. Dedicated to His loving father.
Jesus describes Himself as the Son of God.
Then sometimes the Bible refers to the 'Spirit' of God.

Father-Son-Spirit
Three distinct aspects of the one God

We (who choose to be Christians) are described as a bride, so that we can understand our relation to God
We have a choice and must 'say I do'. we are not married by default or birth.
Heaven is more or less our home that our husband will take us to.

All metaphors to help us understand better.

 

[solarwave]

Well they are separate and the same at the same time. So that would be why you find it are to understand.

I sorta think of it like, H2O> God, Ice>Father, Water> Jesus, Holy Spirit> Water Vapour. So Ice, Water and Water Vaour are the same thing(H2O) and made of the same thing, and basicly the same everything. But all have something a little different in qualities.

BTW, I made that up so may be wrong.

 

[Gyorg]

The Trinity is an ideal labelled around scripture; not taken from it.

 

[Rafael]

Well, why put any limits upon God just because we are limited to three dimensions? We measure time, the fourth, but know that there are many more dimensions just by studying mathematical theory - probably 10. So there is more of the unseen to our reality that there is the seen.
From the begining of the Bible, God speaks of Himself as plural:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!

God is not limited in His power like man, the creature of the Creator. He manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the benefit of man - because He loves us.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

There is more throughout the scriptures showing us how the Holy Spirit abides and guides the believer into truth through life if the ask of God.

Something a friend shared with me, Serapha:

Light is unlike any other form of matter. It has three properties. These properties are inseparable, without them, there is no light. Just like God.
Without the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, there would be no God. Each is coequal, coeternal, and co infinite.
Light's three properties are the Actinic (analogous to the Father), Luminiferous (analogues to the Son), and the Calorific (analogous to the Holy Spirit). The actinic property is the property of light which is neither seen nor felt. The luminiferous property of light is both seen and felt, while the calorific property is not seen but it is felt.

 

[ebia]

Can someone please explain what the holy trinity is,

For a 'definition' try the Athanasian Creed:
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

and list some bible verses that support the definition?

The idea of Trinity isn't spelled out in the bible. There are plenty of hints and pointers towards it, but it's never unambiguously stated, which is why it took a few hundred years and some very unpleasant disagreements before it was thrashed out.

 

[EmbracingHim]

Can someone please explain what the holy trinity is, and list some bible verses that support the definition? I really had trouble with this when I was a christian because Jesus and God seemed like two separate beings.

Many people have trouble with the Trinity concept and that is why a creed was created to assist.

The Trinity does not hold that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are the 'same' being...but 'one' in the Godhead.

Scripture state there are three that bear account in Heaven and list all three beings (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit).

Do not allow this Spiritual concept to be a stumbling block for you. Apostle Paul states we know what is of the flesh and have only partial vision today. The scriptures use a 'dim light' as a visual reference. When the perfect returns (Christ) then we will know perfectly.

It is best understood by me that the importance of understanding that God and Christ are one is so that we might understand the extreme love and sacrafice that God gave us when He sacraficed His 'only begotten' Son who came from Heaven and ascended back to Heaven. 1 John 4 and 1 John 5 is good reference for understanding the importance that we should acknowledge as far as God's identity (1 John 4:8 states God is love). Understanding that God sacraficed of His 'own' is I believe the importance that Trinity concept attempts to convey to others.

Again, I would hope that this understanding is not allowed to become a stumbling block for you or others. I have held questions in this area myself and for a bit I allowed this to be a stumbling block when I did not need to. As my studies progressed...the mystery was revealed in Christ (a scripture that referred to how through Christ it was revealed that it was actually 'grace' that saved Abraham and those of the OT all along...when it was thought that following the law or works (stated to be dirty rags in scripture) could save humans. The identity of God is seen now through scripture to me and I am in awe rather than confusion, but it took much study and there is time without allowing this to be a stumbling block for anyone.

I hope this might help.

 

[Gyorg]

Well, why put any limits upon God just because we are limited to three dimensions? We measure time, the fourth, but know that there are many more dimensions just by studying mathematical theory - probably 10. So there is more of the unseen to our reality that there is the seen.
From the begining of the Bible, God speaks of Himself as plural:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

Isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!

From where in scripture is it identified any of the above refer to persona(s)?

God is not limited in His power like man, the creature of the Creator. He manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the benefit of man - because He loves us.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I heartily agree ^^.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
^ Problem.

There is more throughout the scriptures showing us how the Holy Spirit abides and guides the believer into truth through life if the ask of God.

The Holy Ghost is a descriptive as "God in action" according to Oneness. However following the 'analogy' (as per my insight) Jesus spoke of; right on.

Something a friend shared with me, Serapha:

Light is unlike any other form of matter. It has three properties. These properties are inseparable, without them, there is no light. Just like God.
Without the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, there would be no God. Each is coequal, coeternal, and co infinite.
Light's three properties are the Actinic (analogous to the Father), Luminiferous (analogues to the Son), and the Calorific (analogous to the Holy Spirit). The actinic property is the property of light which is neither seen nor felt. The luminiferous property of light is both seen and felt, while the calorific property is not seen but it is felt.

The properties of light hardly prove the Trinity. Though is a good analogical basis to bring a point across by association.

 

[EmbracingHim]

dream233,

It might also help for me to express that there are different trains of thought as far as the Trinity.

Some confess that God broke a piece of himself off and came to earth. This is an abstract of the N.Creed and not what is written. Some confess that God presents Himself in 'modes.' This is called modalism and again an abstract or interpretation of the N.Creed that was not intended. Still others view God as a mystery beyond that which I do (I'm sure you've heard the water, vapor, steam or the egg...shell, yoke and eggwhite metaphors). The N. Creed actually states three beings or persons in one...the different ideas of this are interpretations or abstracts (individual beliefs).

Again, I hope God's identity doesn't create a stumbling block for you. The importance of knowing that God and His Son are one...can be read in John 1:1 in which it states the Word was in the beginning and was god.

The scriptures give us all we 'need' to know about God's identity and man's different takes are not 'needed.'

Without being reduntant...the Word coming to earth and the law (love) being written on our hearts is seen in 1 John 4 -- This is what is important in the identity of God. Hugs.

 

[Gyorg]

Again, I hope God's identity doesn't create a stumbling block for you. The importance of knowing that God and His Son are one...can be read in John 1:1 in which it states the Word was in the beginning and was god.

The Greek translate of 'word' is logos, meaning:
G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

There is no notion of Jesus being a persona, as per one in the Trinity. However, more specifically a "thought," "reason," "expression," et cetera.

 

[EmbracingHim]

The Greek translate of 'word' is logos, meaning:
G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

There is no notion of Jesus being a persona, as per one in the Trinity. However, more specifically a "thought," "reason," "expression," et cetera.

Thank you Gyorg for offering this.

Jesus is referred to in many ways (i.e. 'Jesus,' Emmanuel, the Word, the Christ, Son of man, etc.)...Given definitions: Christ = the annointed, Emmanuel = God is with us, Jesus = God saves or YHWH is salvation, etc. 'all' of which express a being or 'person.'

An 'expression' or 'thought' can not be God...can it? (John 1:1 and the word was god)

Addressing the original author of this thread again:

Christ Himself asked us...can a man serve two masters?...the answer being no.

The scriptures state that every knee shall bow to Christ. This cross referenced with no man bowing to anyone but God.

Although there are many angels in Heaven -- there are only three that bear account.

I see no cause for God's identity to be a stumbling block for anyone in thier beliefs. God is 'spirit' -- we are flesh and trying to equate what is Spiritual in the flesh is difficult. A person must become dead to their flesh in understanding what is spiritual. Apostle Paul discusses in the scripture the difficulties we all face.

The fact remains that a person accepts Christ as Lord...not a 'concept.' The acceptance of Christ as Lord leads one to salvation...not understanding the Trinity--beyond God's great sacrafice to us...except that we must come to put aside our own logic and accept that of God's words.

Rom 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
KJV.


Hugs.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

God the Son is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, begotten before all ages, consubstantial with the Father by Whom all things were made. He is both fully God and fully man, having no separation. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are One God, having One Essence, in Three Persons.

It's a divine mystery. His ways are above our ways. The Trinity has always been, the idea that the Trinity hasn't is pretty modern.

 

[Rafael]

From where in scripture is it identified any of the above refer to persona(s)?

I heartily agree ^^.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
^ Problem.

The Holy Ghost is a descriptive as "God in action" according to Oneness. However following the 'analogy' (as per my insight) Jesus spoke of; right on.

The properties of light hardly prove the Trinity. Though is a good analogical basis to bring a point across by association.

This is not the proper forum to debate Greek or the Trinity according to the rules posted at the top of this forum. It is also stated to not to teach against the Nicene creed at this forum which does include the doctrine of the Trinity. I doubt I could prove anything by point by point debate, as time and eternity are difficult to nail down, and we just do not have the knowledge of the unseen that God has. To say that God cannot is to limit Him by our ignorance of the eternal dimension. When He said He goes to be at the right hand of the Father and that I am hidden in Him at that same place, well, it is not easy for me to wrap my mind around how eternity has no past or future, only "now", but I accept His word and wonder about it instead of trying to prove it wrong.
If I could convince or help the original poster of one thing concerning the Trinity doctrine, it would be that God is able to be three or as many as He has use for, according to His will and revelation. I just cannot limit God and think it can only be done through ignorance until the day "we know as we are known".

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

 

[Breaking Babylon]

Thank you, Rafael.

Holy Apostle Paul, pray for us sinners.

 

[Gyorg]

This is not the proper forum to debate Greek or the Trinity according to the rules posted at the top of this forum. It is also stated to not to teach against the Nicene creed at this forum which does include the doctrine of the Trinity. I doubt I could prove anything by point by point debate, as time and eternity are difficult to nail down, and we just do not have the knowledge of the unseen that God has. To say that God cannot is to limit Him by our ignorance of the eternal dimension. When He said He goes to be at the right hand of the Father and that I am hidden in Him at that same place, well, it is not easy for me to wrap my mind around how eternity has no past or future, only "now", but I accept His word and wonder about it instead of trying to prove it wrong.
If I could convince or help the original poster of one thing concerning the Trinity doctrine, it would be that God is able to be three or as many as He has use for, according to His will and revelation. I just cannot limit God and think it can only be done through ignorance until the day "we know as we are known".

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

In what manner do you consider I want to "limit God"? If you wish to continue this discussion I would not mind via PM.

As well concerning your mention of 'right hand,' John 4:24 tells God is a Spirit while in cross-reference spirits to not have flesh according to Luke 24:39. How could Jesus possibly be at his right hand outside the confine of analogy? And before you say I am limiting God again, a manifestation is but a representation: otherwise a number of individuals would have died throughout the Bible at any given manifestation.

I have one more important point, being Acts 2:25; what would be your interpretation by the reference of "right hand"?

 

[wmc1982]

Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one.

Just like:
Man, Wife, Child are in union.

 

[Emmy]

Dear thedream233, you had quite a few good replies, here is one more. We know that God is Spirit, Holy Spirit, and is everywhere. God the Father, our Creator, who is in Heaven. Jesus our Saviour, who came to Earth as one of us, God-Son. After God raised Jesus, He told His disciples, " I go back to the Father, and He will send the Holy Spirit, to carry on my work on Earth. Jesus, God-Son is now with the Father, to plead our prayers to God, He is our Mediator. The Holy Spirit is with us now, here on Earth, to tell us about God, about our Saviour, and help us on the way back to God. Three Persons, but ONE GOD, all working together to redeem the whole World. I say this humbly and kindly, dream233, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. Father, Son, and Holy-Spirit.

 

[MikeMcK]

Well they are separate and the same at the same time. So that would be why you find it are to understand.

I sorta think of it like, H2O> God, Ice>Father, Water> Jesus, Holy Spirit> Water Vapour. So Ice, Water and Water Vaour are the same thing(H2O) and made of the same thing, and basicly the same everything. But all have something a little different in qualities.

BTW, I made that up so may be wrong.

That's a heresy known as Sabellianism, also called modalism.

This is where the analogy fails:

Say you divided a bucket of water into three equal portions. 1/3, you freeze. 1/3, you heat. 1/3, you leave at room temp.

Come back in a little while, and you would find ice, steam, and water.

You have three forms, but it's still the same water.

A better analogy would be to compare the Trinity to a Bay Breeze (it's a drink).

You have vodka, cranberry, and pineapple. All three are completely seperate and distinct ingredients, but when put together, they make one drink.

Of course, God is so big and we're so small that any of our analogies aren't going to do Him justice anyway, but you get the idea.

Don't feel too bad, because I used to use the same analogy.

 

[MikeMcK]

Thank you, Rafael.

Holy Apostle Paul, pray for us sinners.

I guess news travels slow, but Paul passed away a few years ago.