Holy Trinity Confusion

[AdamE]

Hi, a couple of questions I have pondered over for a while;

1) In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory. Yet...

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?


2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

 

[dcalling]

It was confusing to me, to the point I went to study Islam since their point of view is simpler, only found all the Quran talk about bible is how we should follow the Torah and Gospel....

Anyway, so my current explanation of it is, God/Jesus/Holy spirit are all God, but of different function (i.e. almost like different part of a person, the head will do something, the hand do others). The official view of my church is they are of different "position" or maybe better explained "dimension" etc. I think mine is easier to understand (at least for me)

 

[Chriscb]

When Jesus came into the world, His mission was specific. That particular mission was to bring salvation into the world. Once this was accomplished, so was that mission. There is no contradiction. 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul states "In the presence of God and the Messiah Jesus, who is going to judge those who are living and those who are dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly appeal to you."

Jesus does nothing that God [the Father] is not part of. Yes, they are one, so I see no contradiction in saying "God will Judge" and "Jesus will Judge". Also, the New Testament does indicate three different judgments. One is the Judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46), the Judgment at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15) and the Judgment (Bema) Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

 

[oi_antz]

When Jesus came into the world, His mission was specific. That particular mission was to bring salvation into the world. Once this was accomplished, so was that mission. There is no contradiction. 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul states "In the presence of God and the Messiah Jesus, who is going to judge those who are living and those who are dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I solemnly appeal to you."

Jesus does nothing that God [the Father] is not part of. Yes, they are one, so I see no contradiction in saying "God will Judge" and "Jesus will Judge". Also, the New Testament does indicate three different judgments. One is the Judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46), the Judgment at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15) and the Judgment (Bema) Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Can you please expand the explanation of the three judgements you mentioned? That should be interesting and useful. Thank you.

 

[Chriscb]

Can you please expand the explanation of the three judgements you mentioned? That should be interesting and useful. Thank you.

Judgment of the Nations is referring to Gentile nations and the people who either accepted Christ and followed His example vs those Gentile nations/people who rejected Christ and persecuted the Jews. An interesting article on this particular viewpoint can be read at http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2011/11E2.html

The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers
The Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) is for believers in Christ (rewards for being faithful). Not a "judgment" of condemnation or loss of salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Judgment of the Nations is referring to Gentile nations and the people who either accepted Christ and followed His example vs those Gentile nations/people who rejected Christ and persecuted the Jews. An interesting article on this particular viewpoint can be read at http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2011/11E2.html

The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers
The Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) is for believers in Christ (rewards for being faithful). Not a "judgment" of condemnation or loss of salvation.

Scripture speaks of Judgment. When Christ comes, He comes to judge the living and the dead--that is what Matthew 25 is about, and it is being described in the Apocalypse.

It is possible to speak of a personal judgment apart from the Final Judgment, but regardless at the Final Judgment all stand before God that includes you, me, everyone. Christians do not get a free pass, we will have to stand before the Almighty and have all laid bare.

I assume that what you are describing with three judgments is some sort of spin on Dispensationalism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oi_antz]

Judgment of the Nations is referring to Gentile nations and the people who either accepted Christ and followed His example vs those Gentile nations/people who rejected Christ and persecuted the Jews. An interesting article on this particular viewpoint can be read at http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2011/11E2.html

The Great White Throne Judgment is for unbelievers
The Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) is for believers in Christ (rewards for being faithful). Not a "judgment" of condemnation or loss of salvation.

Thank you. This is different than how it appears to me.

 

[seashale76]

nm

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi, a couple of questions I have pondered over for a while;

1) In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory. Yet...

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?


2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

Hi Adam,

I hate to say this, but.............your apparent contradiction between John 5:22 and John 12:47-48 can be somewhat cleared up if you'll learn to apply proper exegetical principles when reading the Bible, one of which is to interpret each 'verse' within the context of the passage in which it was placed by the writer of the text.

As far as the second issue you point out with the concept of the Trinity, there is no cause to equate an 'appearance from perception' as a distinct, fourth entity. That is a non-sequitur, my friend.

Peace
2Philovoid

 

[jbearnolimits]

The issue the Jews had with Jesus is that He was saying He was the son of God and in fact God Himself. But all good Jews knew there was only one God as the scriptures said. So not only was Jesus offending them by claiming to be God, but also they assumed this meant He was saying there were 3 Gods (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost).

But the truth is that there is still only one God. Jesus was the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all rolled into one. We make a mistake when we think each are individual. Because they may be individual members of one person, but they are not 3 separate people altogether. This is seen very clearly in Colossians 2:9.

If you want more information on the trinity please see http://onthelineministries.com/the-trinity-explained/ which explains this in detail.

But as for your main question as to who judges...

The issue is not who will be the judge. The issue is WHEN will there be a judgment. Take note of the words at the last day in the scriptures you mentioned. Jesus was saying He was not CURRENTLY judging anyone. Because He came to save.

So lets look at this in the timeline. God the Father (the part of God that was everywhere and not bound in flesh) takes on Himself the flesh and thus we see Jesus the Son. Now God the Father is still everywhere, yet the Son is in one specific location. It's like God is focusing His presence into one body.

God the Father "transfers" all authority to judge to the Son since the Son is still the Father, only in a focused form. The Son came to save so He withholds judgment at that time. Thus the Father and Son judge no man. BUT at the last day God WILL judge. There is no 4th God, and in fact there is only ever one God. We simply see Him take whatever form He chooses.

And as to if we see Him in the form of 3 or as simply Jesus...He can be all 3 forms at one time or 3 in one, whatever He chooses.

 

[com7fy8]

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

I would say this is talking about on the day of judgment, when Jesus will be judging.

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This is talking about how Jesus Christ's words will judge, but at that time Jesus was busy with not judging, but saving. Also, since Jesus spoke those words, He was indeed involved in the judging which our Father has committed to Him, but that judging will be later, after Jesus has saved people, first.

The words for judging were seeds being planted, but not judging, yet.

So, I think these verses are complementary, not contradictory.

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?

For one thing, "one" here means how our Father and Jesus are one in Their relating and sharing and in how They are in love. It is not meant to say They are one in number. Also, our Father has been in Jesus working > "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." (in John 14:10) So, Jesus has been doing things in oneness with our Father, in submission to how our Father has had Jesus working. And so, we can consider that when Jesus judges, He will be speaking in judgment what our Father in Him has Him speaking.

So, our Father has committed all judgment to Jesus, plus our Father in Jesus will be the One who has Jesus doing that judging.

 

[stray bullet]

Hi, a couple of questions I have pondered over for a while;

1) In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory. Yet...

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?


2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

For some reason, various posts of this topic disagree with the Nicene Creed, which is the forum's definition of Christianity and it is the standard definition of Christianity. It was created in the 4th Century the leaders of Christianity gathered together. It was based on previous and related Creeds that were all in agreement anyways- they made a formal definition.

God is one substance. That is, whatever God is made of, it is shared by all three persons of the Christianity. The Father, The Son (who came to Earth and was called Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons. They are three distinct persons but they share the same body or substance. This is difficult to understand in human terms, because nothing exists that is like that.

The closest to our understanding would be a conjoined triplet. Three persons sharing one body (like "Siamese twins"). They share many of their fluids, but they do have distinct organs. The Trinity does not have any distinct parts. Everything they have they share among themselves. God is not a creature with heads and hands or anything like that.

 

[stray bullet]

It was confusing to me, to the point I went to study Islam since their point of view is simpler, only found all the Quran talk about bible is how we should follow the Torah and Gospel....

Anyway, so my current explanation of it is, God/Jesus/Holy spirit are all God, but of different function (i.e. almost like different part of a person, the head will do something, the hand do others). The official view of my church is they are of different "position" or maybe better explained "dimension" etc. I think mine is easier to understand (at least for me)

The function viewpoint is wrong because it makes the three persons of God and their distinctions contingent upon humanity. That is, without people, there would be no way to tell the three persons of God apart. That would mean that God would need humanity to exists as itself. Which is irrational, since God created human beings and God is unchanging.

 

[com7fy8]

2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

I consider that our Father will be sitting as a Person on the throne, and Jesus His Son will be seated next to Him, but our Father extends spiritually without personal form all through the universe and all space and in us > Ephesians 4:6.

But the Holy Spirit might not have a personal shape to be perceived, but is spiritual, but a Person since He is personal in love and relating with our Father and Jesus, and "makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered," we have in Romans 8:26.

I would say this intercession is inter-Personal. So, the Holy Spirit is a Person, but possibly not with a human-form shape. But though He has no personal form, He is still a love Being, personal in love. He is a Person of love; so He is a Person of God who "is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16).

And we can "see" the Holy Spirit in us, "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5), by perceiving how He is in love and how He is transforming us to become perfect in God's own love >

1 John 4:17

So, in Heaven, I consider that we will see the Holy Spirit, but in us.

 

[hedrick]

The function viewpoint is wrong because it makes the three persons of God and their distinctions contingent upon humanity. That is, without people, there would be no way to tell the three persons of God apart. That would mean that God would need humanity to exists as itself. Which is irrational, since God created human beings and God is unchanging.

I don't think he's said quite enough to make that judgement. You're speaking of modalism. It saw the persons as different ways in which God revealed himself. But it's also possible to see the difference as inherent to God, as referring to ways in which God relates to himself. That doesn't have the problem that you mention.

 

[food4thought]

Hi, a couple of questions I have pondered over for a while;

1) In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

This verse is saying that it will be Jesus on the judgment throne. Don't read anymore into it than that.

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory.

This verse means that Jesus will not arbitrarily condemn/judge (same Greek word) people who have heard the gospel, it will be based upon His word, the Bible, which has been given.

Yet...

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?

I understand this to mean that the persons of the Trinity are one in the sense that the 3 persons are so unified in every way that they are one Being. This does not preclude one of the Three being the agent of their action.

2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

Yes. We will see 3 separate persons unified in one Being. No, in Biblical revelation there is not a 4th member of the Godhead. How exactly the Father and Holy Spirit will appear is truly a great mystery to us (Jesus in His eternal state is revealed, I believe, in Revelation 1:12-16)... I long for the day when I will see them as they are.

Hope this helps;
Mike

 

[Aidan K]

There is only one God and He is perfectly complete. Trnitarianism is a construct of Christianity

 

[talitha]

There is only one God and He is perfectly complete. Trnitarianism is a construct of Christianity

And this is the "Exploring Christianity" sub-forum. We are giving answers from a Christian perspective because that is what the OP is asking for, in keeping with the purpose of this sub-forum.

 

[oi_antz]

There is only one God and He is perfectly complete. Trnitarianism is a construct of Christianity

"Observation" is a better word for this than "construct". Christians are only observing the truth (or parroting and conflating those observations, as sometimes the case may be).

 

[justlookinla]

Hi, a couple of questions I have pondered over for a while;

1) In the following verses, Jesus is speaking.

John 5:22 says "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son."

Yet John 12:47-48 says "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a Judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

This verses, on the surface, seem contradictory. Yet...

In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one."

As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that Jesus exists both separately from God and as a part of the Godhead. But since Jesus is the Son of God, He is His own person, so to speak.

So if Jesus and the Father are one, then who judges us on Judgement Day- God or Jesus(God) ?


2) For those who are worthy enough to reach Heaven, we will see God and be with him forever. Does this mean we see The Father, Son & Holy Spirit all at the same time as 3 separate persons, or just as one, being God? If the latter, it sort of seems like a 4th member of the trinity, which of course is not the case.

The answer is simple. Jesus is not God, Jesus is the Son of God the Father. They're two separate entities.