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You may keep saying that and refusing to understand, but you're still wrong.
"Holy Tradition" is not tradition.
It's a name given to a method by which the various Catholic churches determine and define doctrine. You are trying to say that if Protestants give assent to Biblical teaching--and have done so consistently for a long time--they are doing so in the same way as Catholics create doctrine from an alleged "consensus of historic opinion."
We don't do that. The two methods are different. How you could call "We don't do that (and never have)" disingenuous seems to me to be, well, disingenuous.
Very good points.That's just a fancy way of saying Ps and RCs are different. Can't argue with that. But I'm using your own definition: the solas define doctrine. No P is going to come along one day and say that she's "discovered a better practise for worship" or some such that is better than the solas. This is because the solas are axiomatic doctrines of the Protestant church. They are not "options". They cannot be changed. If a church confesses a belief that is unalterable, that belief defines the doctrine (again, using your own words) of that church.
You may keep saying that and refusing to understand, but you're still wrong.
"Holy Tradition" is not tradition.
It's a name given to a method by which the various Catholic churches determine and define doctrine. You are trying to say that if Protestants give assent to Biblical teaching--and have done so consistently for a long time--they are doing so in the same way as Catholics create doctrine from an alleged "consensus of historic opinion."
We don't do that. The two methods are different. How you could call "We don't do that (and never have)" disingenuous seems to me to be, well, disingenuous.
That's just a fancy way of saying Ps and RCs are different. Can't argue with that. But I'm using your own definition: the solas define doctrine. No P is going to come along one day and say that she's "discovered a better practise for worship" or some such that is better than the solas. This is because the solas are axiomatic doctrines of the Protestant church. They are not "options". They cannot be changed. If a church confesses a belief that is unalterable, that belief defines the doctrine (again, using your own words) of that church.
MKJ, very good post. I was beginning to wonder if all Protestants were walking around with blinders on.No - he is saying that the idea that Christians should simply assent to Scripture to get correct teachings is Tradition.
How does any person who believes that is how Christians know truth come to believe that? It isn't in the Bible itself, but if it were, it wouldn't be helpful unless you like circular arguments. It isn't thundered out by cavernous disembodied voices at prayer meetings. It is the decision and consensus of the community, and it typically defines those communities.
As a Tradition it is generated in two ways: the claim that this was of assenting to the Bible is the authentic practice of the early Church (Tradition,) and by the consensus of the community doing the teaching in the present (also Tradition, because in the Church Tradition extends over time.)
When those two things don't match up, the past and present Tradition, at least in the more fundamental sense, you get a break in Tradition, and often two separate communities, which is why we sometimes refer to communities as traditions
And in practice it is actually much more complex than that. Firstly because how we decide what Biblical teaching is isn't obvious and needs to be defined by the community. And secondly, once you have done so, you get a variety of interpretations of what the Bible actually teaches, and then that interpretation itself becomes part of the communities Tradition of Biblical understanding.
So you could have a Lutheran whose Tradition says he must interpret Scripture for truth, that he is meant to go about that in very particular ways, and then it makes particular interpretations based on what comes out of that method. Someone who on the other hand has a sort of simple tradition of interpretation based on literalism and fundamentalism will have very different teachings in his group.
This is why the Protestant reformers all claimed to be more closely adhering to the practice of the early Church, and that the Roman practices were corruptions. Their method they say as essentially preserving or reviving (perhaps with developments to keep it from straying again) the original Tradition which the Roman Church had strayed from. In claiming their practices were in line with the authentic primitive Church, they were making an argument from Tradition.
MKJ, very good post. I was beginning to wonder if all Protestants were walking around with blinders on.
I think it has more to do with the fact that the concept of Tradition has become an evil word in their faith traditions; as it is used as a negative when comparing and contrasting my faith with theirs.In my experience, people who say that Protestantism has no Tradition are usually out of American Baptist, or non-denominational or fundamentalist backgrounds.
People who are Anglican and Lutheran and Reformed understand the concept and where they fit into it. Which isn't to say they might not quibble about details, or have differences in the way they use the language at times.
I have an intuition that it relates to their understanding of the Church as community, but probably in individuals it is in part about having some sense of how much our community and experiences, even our secular community, defines the way we read a text.
I think this is true too.I think it has more to do with the fact that the concept of Tradition has become an evil word in their faith traditions; as it is used as a negative when comparing and contrasting my faith with theirs.
In my experience, people who say that Protestantism has no Tradition are usually out of American Baptist, or non-denominational or fundamentalist backgrounds.
People who are Anglican and Lutheran and Reformed understand the concept and where they fit into it. Which isn't to say they might not quibble about details, or have differences in the way they use the language at times.
I have an intuition that it relates to their understanding of the Church as community, but probably in individuals it is in part about having some sense of how much our community and experiences, even our secular community, defines the way we read a text.
I think this is true too.
Just wondering if say a Baptist would consider how they partake of communion as part of their Holy Tradition?
And if you're not open to that, why do you suppose that the Catholics here like to accuse us of being stupid enough to 1) take the word of God (the Bible) as our guide to doctrine and also 2) accuse us of unconsciously using their system at the same time?
What are you arguing then when you mistaken insist that Protestants define their doctrines in the same way as Catholics do?That's just a fancy way of saying Ps and RCs are different. Can't argue with that.
What would it take ...
I'm arguing that the solas aren't the same thing as red or blue.What are you arguing then when you mistaken insist that Protestants define their doctrines in the same way as Catholics do?
For me, it would take the majority of those under the Protestant tent agreeing that the solas were a "religious custom".
Fair enough. You're saying that nothing is likely to stop you from using a line against us, even if you know it to be untrue. Well, that's nothing new on CF, but I can appreciate the candor.
What part of communion isn't "Holy"?What would it take for you to recognize that "Tradition" doesn't mean "traditions" or any particular "tradition," and that the word "Holy" attached to it doesn't mean that, for example, having the pulpit on the right side of the Altar is "holy" just because we're talking about a religious custom?
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