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I agree with the rest of your first paragraph; however the enbolded portion is a very wrong statement.NacDan said:Jesus is not the Father. He didn't pray to himself. Jesus submitted his will to the Father. Jesus asked the Father to take "this cup from me" (if it be His will). The Father delights in bruising the Son. They are separate. What you are explaining is Oneness Doctrine.
Well, the word "Elohim" can support the dogma of the Trinity, but it is not necessarily proof positive evidence. The word "Elohim" alone does not differenciate between or define the words "attributes" and "persons".I'm sure somewhere in this thread I put the original hebrew text for Genesis 1:1. The word translated "GOD" is singular plural. That means that even the early Hebrews understood that while there is only one God, He is made up of separate persons of one essence.
Scholar in training said:I agree with the rest of your first paragraph; however the enbolded portion is a very wrong statement.
John 17:1
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
Well, the word "Elohim" can support the dogma of the Trinity, but it is not necessarily proof positive evidence. The word "Elohim" alone does not differenciate between or define the words "attributes" and "persons".
This part: "The Father delights in bruising the Son."NacDan said:I'm not sure exactly which part you are disagreeing with.
No, I am not disagreeing with that (yikes, triple negative). I am a Trinitarian Christian.Are you disagreeing that Jesus did not pray to Himself?
Well.... no. Some folks do use the word "dogma" in a negative sense, but it literally means a required belief in a religion. Catholics, for instance, call the Trinity a dogma because it is a required belief in Christianity. Orthodox Jews call the resurrection a dogma because it is a required belief in Judaism.Interesting choice of words, "dogma", rather than "doctrine". Says alot about your position on the issue of the Trinity.
Agreed. Scriptura scripturam interpretar.No one statement is proof positive evidence of the Trinity doctrine.
But the context can be read as God's creative attributes participating in creation, not necessarily the persons of the Trinity.The word "elohim" is a plural-singular noun. The context is much easier as a group of persons than a group of personalities.
Scholar in training said:This part: "The Father delights in bruising the Son."
Scholar in training said:But the context can be read as God's creative attributes participating in creation, not necessarily the persons of the Trinity.
I apologize; I thought you were using the phrase in a type of unorthodox, sadistic manner. I should have realized its rightful connection to Scripture.NacDan said:Isaiah 53:10 {KJV}
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
This is a direct reference to the crucifixion of the Son, Jesus. Some translations say delights.
The point of the statement in the context I was using is that the Father and the Son are not the same person.
I have also heard the argument that Jesus was present in, say, Gen. 18, but I have not delved too fully into that argument. It makes for an interesting typological connection, at the least.Interestingly enough, I've been studying Genesis with a couple people and am seeing all 3 persons of the Trinity in it. Might be an interesting thread of itself if I can figure out which forum it belongs. (It's a rabbit trail on this thread, and neither you nor I are "non-Christians", so we can't start the thread here.)
winsome said:The three persons of the Trinity are not roles. Someone explained this to me by saying that the nature define WHAT you are, the person defines WHO you are.
So if I walked in the room you could say
WHAT are you - a human being
WHO are you - winsome
The WHAT of God is his divine nature - only one divine nature
The WHO of God is Father, Son or Spirit.
They are defined by RELATIONSHIP not by role.
The Athanaseain Creed defines it well:
Athanasian Creed
P: Whoever wills to be saved must before all else hold fast to the Catholic faith. All: Unless one keeps this faith whole and untarnished, without doubt he will perish forever.
P: Now this is the Catholic faith: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity;
All: Neither confusing the Persons one with the other, nor making a distinction in their nature.
P: For the Father is a distinct Person; and so is the Son; and so is the Holy Spirit.
All: Yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit possess one Godhead, co-equal glory, co-eternal majesty.
P: As the Father is, so is the Son, so also is the Holy Spirit.
All: The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
P: The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, the Holy Spirit is infinite.
All: The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal.
P: Yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal God.
All: Even as they are not three uncreated, or three infinities, but one uncreated and one infinite God.
P: So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty.
All: Yet they are not three almighties, but they are the one Almighty.
P: Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
All: Yet they are not three gods, but one God.
P: Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord.
All: Yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
P: For just as Christian truth compels us to profess that each Person is individually God and Lord, so does the Catholic religion forbid us to hold that there are three gods or lords.
All: The Father was not made by any power; He was neither created nor begotten.
P: The Son is from the Father alone, neither created nor made, but begotten.
All: The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but He proceeds.
P: So there is one Father, not three; one Son, not three; one Holy Spirit, not three.
All: And in this Trinity one Person is not earlier or later, nor is one greater or less; but all three Persons are co-eternal and co-equal.
P: In every way, then, as already affirmed, unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity is to be worshiped.
All: Whoever, then, wills to be saved must assent to this doctrine of the Blessed Trinity.
P: But it is necessary for everlasting salvation that one also firmly believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All: True faith, then, requires us to believe and profess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.
P: He is God, begotten of the substance of the Father from eternity; He is man, born in time of the substance of His Mother.
All: He is perfect God, and perfect man subsisting in a rational soul and a human body.
P: He is equal to the Father in His divine nature, but less than the Father in His human nature as such.
All: And though He is God and man, yet He is the one Christ, not two;
P: One, however, not by any change of divinity into flesh, but by the act of God assuming a human nature.
All: He is one only, not by a mixture of substance, but by the oneness of His Person.
P: For, somewhat as the rational soul and the body compose one man, so Christ is one Person who is both God and man;
All: Who suffered for our salvation, who descended into hell, who rose again the third day from the dead;
P: Who ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty, from there He shall come to judge both the living and the dead.
All: At His coming all men shall rise again in their bodies, and shall give an account of their works.
P: And those who have done good shall enter into everlasting life, but those who have done evil into everlasting fire.
All: All this is Catholic faith, and unless one believes it truly and firmly one cannot be saved.
P: Glory be to the Father
All: As it was in the beginning.
Sorry that's a bit of a long post
Kazahel said:I believe the Son is equal to the Father because he ends up inheriting his fathers... things.. because he is his Son. But you dont give your inheritence to your Son until he is old enough.The Son is also equal to the Father because they share the same name being Father and Son. The Son takes the Fathers name because he is his son. So they are the same but not.
This is not the forum to get into that debate, although I would start with St. John's gospel "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (not a God or another God)MarcServet said:Notice the red big letters that i set.
Biblically can you support that the Father and the Son were equal?
I don't think Athanmasius is saying that, in fact he saysMarcServet said:The Athanasian clearly teach more than one God or two Gods because it stated that the Son is equal to the Divine nature of the Father! Because when you say equal that is more than one in comparison, and the Athanasian clearly defines that the Son is another Divine that is equal to the Divinity of the Father, that means two Gods(two divinities) in comparison that are equal.
Father and Son must share the same name because they are father and son. Like family. So the son inherits if he knows his Father.MarcServet said:Do you mean they are equal both God?
What name they share?
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