Holy Spirit and trinity

msindiausa · Nov 25, 2005

I have a hard time believing in a physical holy spirit. The only reason I believe in it slightly is because of the christians I know who seem to have something in them.

As for the trinity, it isn't in the bible so I don't really understand it...Can anybody explain these two?

HypnoToad · Nov 25, 2005

msindiausa said:
I have a hard time believing in a physical holy spirit. The only reason I believe in it slightly is because of the christians I know who seem to have something in them.

As for the trinity, it isn't in the bible so I don't really understand it...Can anybody explain these two?

I think you mean "real" Holy Spirit - spirits, by definition are not "physical".

Anyhow, the word "Trinity" does not appear in Scripture, BUT its definition IS there - various passages lay out different pieces of the belief, you just have to put all the pieces together.

The basic pieces are something like:
1. There is one God
2. The Father is God
3. Jesus/The Son is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
5. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father

Put together, there's one God, three distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) - each person is fully God, yet distinct from each other. That is the Trinity.

This page http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=215 goes into more detail and includes the relevent Scripture.

pinkieposies · Nov 25, 2005

msindiausa said:
I have a hard time believing in a physical holy spirit. The only reason I believe in it slightly is because of the christians I know who seem to have something in them.

msindiausa said:
As for the trinity, it isn't in the bible so I don't really understand it...Can anybody explain these two?

The Holy Spirit, as it's name indicates, is Spirit, not a physical being. The Holy Spirit dwells within the saved person and does physical works through them, but it is not in itself a physical being. So I am not really sure what you mean by "physical".

As for the Trinity, no, the word "Trinity" isn't actually in the Bible, but it is a word that the Church has come to use to represent the three persons God reveals himself as in the Bible in order to better represent its beliefs on who God is. Unlike what some churches teach, or what some people think, the word Trinity does not represent three entirely seperate Gods. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all an equal part of the triune God {Triune= Three but one.}, who is three, but one at the same time.

Make sense? I'm sorry, if it doesn't. I wish i could explain it better. Maybe you can tell us what exactly it is that you don't understand.

God Bless,
Erin

pinkieposies · Nov 25, 2005

XianJedi said:
The basic pieces are something like:
1. There is one God
2. The Father is God
3. Jesus/The Son is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
5. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father

Put together, there's one God, three distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) - each person is fully God, yet distinct from each other. That is the Trinity.

This page http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=215 goes into more detail and includes the relevent Scripture.

Excellent! Couldn't have put it better myself! Ha ha.

Erin

msindiausa · Nov 25, 2005

pinkieposies said:
The Holy Spirit, as it's name indicates, is Spirit, not a physical being. The Holy Spirit dwells within the saved person and does physical works through them, but it is not in itself a physical being. So I am not really sure what you mean by "physical".

As for the Trinity, no, the word "Trinity" isn't actually in the Bible, but it is a word that the Church has come to use to represent the three persons God reveals himself as in the Bible in order to better represent its beliefs on who God is. Unlike what some churches teach, or what some people think, the word Trinity does not represent three entirely seperate Gods. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all an equal part of the triune God {Triune= Three but one.}, who is three, but one at the same time.

Make sense? I'm sorry, if it doesn't. I wish i could explain it better. Maybe you can tell us what exactly it is that you don't understand.

God Bless,
Erin

I was under the impression that the trinity were 3 seperate physical beings some how united as one...Can you tell I am confused? Any help you can give is welcome.

pinkieposies · Nov 25, 2005

msindiausa said:
I was under the impression that the trinity were 3 seperate physical beings some how united as one...Can you tell I am confused? Any help you can give is welcome.

Well, I think you have the right idea {They are three seperate persons united into the one Godhead}, but again I don't really understand what you mean by "physical". Only Jesus was made flesh here on this earth in the physical realm.

I myself can't explain it very well. It is a great mystery that we may never comprehend fully {It is hard to understand God as three persons yet one God}, but maybe you could talk to someone more knowledgable on the subject. Maybe check out the link the person provided earlier. If you are going to church, maybe try to ask your pastor or an elder or teacher about it.

God Bless,
Erin

BarbB · Nov 25, 2005

msindiausa said:
I was under the impression that the trinity were 3 seperate physical beings some how united as one...Can you tell I am confused? Any help you can give is welcome.

What I can tell you is that it's not like three buddies decided to get together to form a club.

There was never a time when any one of the three didn't exist. Think about Genesis where "the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters" and you have the Holy Spirit. The Angel of the Lord in the OT is Jesus. Jesus created the world; God spoke the world into existence. When you know what to look for in the OT you can find lots of references to a trinity! :wave;

Paul_Wright_luvr · Nov 25, 2005

Ok, so I am a 14 year old girl, the same way that God is God. But, part of me is a friend, to my fiends, same way as part of God is the Holy Spirit. Another part of me is that I am a child to my parents, same way as Jesus is the Son but also part of God. I am also a babysitter, same as God the Father is part of God. I have many different parts, same as how there are three parts of God. But He is so much greater. He can be all three parts of the trinity to everyone at the same time. Every part of Him is everywhere all the time with all people.

It's a little confusing. Hope I didn't make it even more confusing for you.

HypnoToad · Nov 25, 2005

Paul_Wright_luvr said:
Ok, so I am a 14 year old girl, the same way that God is God. But, part of me is a friend, to my fiends, same way as part of God is the Holy Spirit. Another part of me is that I am a child to my parents, same way as Jesus is the Son but also part of God. I am also a babysitter, same as God the Father is part of God. I have many different parts, same as how there are three parts of God. But He is so much greater. He can be all three parts of the trinity to everyone at the same time. Every part of Him is everywhere all the time with all people.

It's a little confusing. Hope I didn't make it even more confusing for you.

What you describe is closer to modalism than the Trinity. In your analogy, all of your "parts" are different roles of the same person. The Trinity teaching is NOT that God plays three different roles, but rather there are three separate persons, each with their own role.

Bon · Nov 26, 2005

msindiausa said:
I was under the impression that the trinity were 3 seperate physical beings some how united as one...Can you tell I am confused? Any help you can give is welcome.

To understand the enormity of YHWH (God) with our tiny finite minds, is certainly something many of us battle to grasp.

I'll give it a go.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning GOD CREATED the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 And GOD SAID, "Let there be light": and there was light.

OK, now here I understand it is Father, Son and Spirit mentioned in the first three verses of Genesis 1. But all are God (YHWH)
Where is Yahshua (Jesus), you might ask?

Now compare:
John 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING was THE WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and the WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, and WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

14 And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

The WORD of God (YHWH) confirms that God is ONE.
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is ONE!

Putting it all together:
GOD CREATED BY HIS WORD (comminucation)
YAHSHUA (JESUS) WAS THE WORD THAT CREATED THE UNIVERSE.
THE SPIRIT IS THE BREATH/WIND (PRESENCE/ACTION) OF GOD (YHWH)

Ruach: Spirit , "denotes wind and spirit, like pneuma , from pnew . Ruach Elohim , is not a breath of wind caused by God (Theodoret, etc.), for the verb does not suit this meaning, but the creative Spirit of God, the principle of all life (Ps. xxxiii. 6, civ. 30), which worked upon the formless, lifeless mass, separating, quickening, and preparing the living forms, which were called into being by the creative words that followed." (Commentary on the Old Testament, Volume I, C.F.Keil and F. Delitzsch, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Fifth Printing, June 1978)

Genesis 1:2b "And the Spirit of God was HOVERING over the face of the waters." Rahapl , means "to brood over, to hover with a gentle wavering or fluttering motion, as of a bird over her young." What a beautiful picture! God is about to bring into being every living thing and His Spirit hovers over the waters of creation as a mother cares for her children. C.F. Schultz wrote: "Over the lifeless and formless mass of the world-matter this Spirit broods like a bird on its nest, and thus transmits to it the seeds of life, so that afterwards by the word of God it can produce whatever God wills." (C.F. Schultz, "Old Testament Theology")

There are many scriputres that reveal who YHWH is.

Psalm 33:6 By the WORD of the LORD the heavens were made,
And all the host of them by the BREATH of His MOUTH.

Job 33:4 The SPIRIT OF GOD has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Colossians 1:15-17 that "He (Yahshua) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

IMHO, God YHWH is the one, the only God of the universe.....and by His WORD (Yahshua/Jesus) He commanded all things into being, by the actions of His SPIRIT.

You may recall that the Holy Spirit performs the will of God..in the example of the impregnation of Mary in
Luke1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

No-one has seen the face of God (YHWH)
Exodus 33:17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the LORD said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

....but He has manifested Himself to mankind in varying forms including that of Yahshua...such as the burning bush on Mount Sinai, and the forth figure in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in Daniel 3:25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

I could go on and on...but the topic is so complex....so much more so than squeezing the content of it into a short post. It's like a ripple effect, the more you delve into it, the bigger you realise it is.

Anyway I hope that it has helped you in some small way.

Shalom
Bon

JJM · Nov 26, 2005

newlamb said:
The Angel of the Lord in the OT is Jesus.

What would make you think this? I always assumed the Angel of God was an angel of God.

Paul_Wright_luvr · Nov 26, 2005

JJM said:
What would make you think this? I always assumed the Angel of God was an angel of God.

I'm pretty sure it is because otherwise they would have siad God the Son. Jesus is NOT an angle. Angles are created beings and they are in no way shape or form perfect.

Paul_Wright_luvr · Nov 26, 2005

XianJedi said:
What you describe is closer to modalism than the Trinity. In your analogy, all of your "parts" are different roles of the same person. The Trinity teaching is NOT that God plays three different roles, but rather there are three separate persons, each with their own role.

Acually, all there are three different roles of God and they are all seperate but the same. God is so mysterious, there is no way that a human could comprehend. There is no analogy on earth that could make someone understand the trinity. I'm actually willing to bet that no human understands the trinity 100%.

JJM · Nov 26, 2005

Paul_Wright_luvr said:
Acually, all there are three different roles of God and they are all seperate but the same. God is so mysterious, there is no way that a human could comprehend. There is no analogy on earth that could make someone understand the trinity. I'm actually willing to bet that no human understands the trinity 100%.

No it isn't separate roles They are three separate people. There is a difference it isn't like I'm a son, friend, and student it is like my father and mother are two people but one through marriage. As for fully understanding the Trinity no there isnt a perfect analogy but there are some that help and there are some that are just wrong.

Paul_Wright_luvr said:
I'm pretty sure it is because otherwise they would have siad God the Son. Jesus is NOT an angle. Angles are created beings and they are in no way shape or form perfect.

Yes I know that is why I asked the question I assumed that the angle of God in the Old Testament was in fact an angel yet this person was saying the angel was Jesus. That said Angels are perfect they are completely united to the will of God an angel that is imperfect is a demon.

HypnoToad · Nov 26, 2005

JJM said:
What would make you think this? I always assumed the Angel of God was an angel of God.

I've heard this theory before, and I believe there is Scriptural suppport, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Also, I believe it is only "the angel of the Lord" (exact words) that would refer to Jesus in the OT. If it only says "angel of God", or something like "God sent an angel" - that would simply be an "angel" as we typically use it today.

NacDan · Nov 26, 2005

Paul_Wright_luvr said:
Acually, all there are three different roles of God and they are all seperate but the same. God is so mysterious, there is no way that a human could comprehend. There is no analogy on earth that could make someone understand the trinity. I'm actually willing to bet that no human understands the trinity 100%.

Sounds like Oneness doctrine to me.

Danny

BarbB · Nov 27, 2005

JJM said:
What would make you think this? I always assumed the Angel of God was an angel of God.

Which angel of God? Other very important angels are named, like Michael and Gabriel, but this Angel of God is not, well, except in our hearts.

Let me look back through some class notes from 4 years ago and get you some verses.

Edited to add: See post below!

BarbB · Nov 27, 2005

XianJedi said:
I've heard this theory before, and I believe there is Scriptural suppport, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Also, I believe it is only "the angel of the Lord" (exact words) that would refer to Jesus in the OT. If it only says "angel of God", or something like "God sent an angel" - that would simply be an "angel" as we typically use it today.

Thanks Jedi for catching the tiny difference - I did not in my response to the question.

Angel of God = angel

Angel of the Lord = Jesus

NacDan · Nov 27, 2005

newlamb said:
Thanks Jedi for catching the tiny difference - I did not in my response to the question.

Angel of God = angel

Angel of the Lord = Jesus

HUH? Can someone tell me WHERE this doctrine comes from? Scriptures?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Danny

HypnoToad · Nov 27, 2005

NacDan said:
HUH? Can someone tell me WHERE this doctrine comes from? Scriptures?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Danny

This page has a lot about it -
http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/gen16v7.html

Holy Spirit and trinity

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