Holy Communion

[Andrew]

But this is not necessarily the Lord's Supper as we know it, since there's no mention of wine.

In Middle Eastern culture, you dont just have a meal with anyone. When you invite someone to eat with you, it speaks volumes to both parties as well as your neighbours. Its like making a covenant. That's why the Pharisees were so turned off when Jesus ate with sinners.

Many a times, the breaking of bread after Jesus arose opened the disciples eyes and then they recognised it was Jesus. Why is that? Becos it reminded them of the night of the Lord's Supper. It was the link to the Lord's betrayal and death for them.

Since it says "after 8 days", I would take this to mean a Monday, but that's JMO. It might be different depending on how Jews count their days.

Yes you have to take into consideration that a day starts after 6pm for the Jews. I dont know how that works out though, haven't really bothered to go calculate it.

From what I understand, the tithing was done on the first day of the week b/c that was the first day they could do the work necessary to gather the tithe (it would not have been money, but rather produce from the fields and food and so forth).

I'm talking abt the principle of tithing, which is what is important. Not the nitty gritty nett or gross, produce or dollars? stuff. eg you can 'tithe' the first hour of your day to God doing quiet time, and God will bless the rest of the day.

I think this is my point: if they met frequently to break bread (which was a common phrase that meant to share a meal), then we should also. And if you adhere to the idea that "break bread" in this passage does mean the Lord's Supper, then we should also do it frequently in each other's homes.

Yes my point exactly. And yes, I believe the breaking bread here to be Communion. I dont think the early disciples met to just eat among themselves.

I agree with this to an extent. We should share the Lord's Supper when we meet, and that pretty much means Sundays. But I don't think we should feel limited to just Sundays.

Exactly my point again. That's why I said Sundays should be the minimum, so to speak. In this regard, the RCs have it right.

Thank you for the references, though. I'm exploring all of this right now during a "shake-my-world" spiritual growth spurt , so I appreciate your input!

have fun!

btw:

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week [SUNDAY], when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

No wine is mentioned here also, so did the disciples have communion or just a good time eating?

I checked up the Greek meaning for "break" and "bread". Here's what Strongs says:

• BREAK:
2806 klao klao {klah'-o}
a primary verb; TDNT - 3:726,437; v
AV - break 15; 15
1) to break
1a) used in the NT of the breaking of bread or communion

• BREAD:
2806 klao klao {klah'-o}
a primary verb; TDNT - 3:726,437; v
AV - break 15; 15
1) to break
1a) used in the NT of the breaking of bread or communion
740 artov artos {ar'-tos}
from 142; TDNT - 1:477,80; n m
AV - bread 72, loaf 23, shewbread + 4286 + 3588 4; 99
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round
cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or
platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table
2) food of any kind

So I am quite sure "break bread" here = holy communion

 

[By Grace]

In Middle Eastern culture, you dont just have a meal with anyone. When you invite someone to eat with you, it speaks volumes to both parties as well as your neighbours. Its like making a covenant. That's why the Pharisees were so turned off when Jesus ate with sinners.

...

Yes my point exactly. And yes, I believe the breaking bread here to be Communion. I dont think the early disciples met to just eat among themselves.

Sorry, these two statements seem to contradict each other.

I'm talking abt the principle of tithing, which is what is important. Not the nitty gritty nett or gross, produce or dollars? stuff. eg you can 'tithe' the first hour of your day to God doing quiet time, and God will bless the rest of the day.

I apologize if it looked like I was implying that we must tithe the exact same way as it was done in Scripture, with produce instead of money or whatever. My point was just that they tithed on the first day of the week b/c it was the first day of work, not a day of rest. They rested on the Sabbath. But if you want to tithe with rest, that's fine, too.

Exactly my point again. That's why I said Sundays should be the minimum, so to speak. In this regard, the RCs have it right.

I can see that.

btw:

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week [SUNDAY], when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

No wine is mentioned here also, so did the disciples have communion or just a good time eating?

I've heard this passage used, too, to justify calling Sunday "the Lord's Day" and so on. But there are a few points I'd like to make. First of all, this meal was a traditional Jewish meal that they frequently shared at the end of the Sabbath. If you read the rest of the verse, it says "he continued his speech until midnight", which implies this was an evening gathering. And since Jews count days from evening to evening, the only midnight on Sunday would be what to us is Saturday evening. Therefore, if we are to use this example as binding, we should meet on Saturday evenings and stay together until midnight. Furthermore, if you read the rest of the passage, it says that after raising someone from the dead, he broke bread again, then they continued to meet "even until break of day." So perhaps we should also be raising people from the dead and meeting all night long and even breaking bread more than once per service. (Just want to add, I don't have a problem with miracles that result in raising people from the dead! )

I really don't think that meeting on Sunday and sharing the Lord's Supper at church is a bad thing. I don't want to come across that way at all. I think you hit the nail on the head by saying we should, at the minimum, share the Lord's Supper when we tend to meet once a week (though I know there are many who would argue against that). It's just that the church I've come from has always claimed that Sunday is "the Lord's Day", and they use these verses about breaking bread to justify changing the day of rest from the 7th day to the 1st day, which I no longer believe is supported by Scripture.

If you want to meet on the 1st day, fine. I don't think God will say He doesn't accept your worship just b/c it's on Sunday instead of Saturday. In fact, in my case, with two small children, it's actually a lot of work to get to church, and is not a very restful activity for the Sabbath. I think, in my failed efforts to find a Sabbath church in our area that I feel comfortable with, God is saying that we're to stay with a Sunday church for a while (though not necessarily the one we've been attending).

But this exploration in the past few weeks on what Scripture actually says about the Apostles' observance of Jewish customs (what changed and what didn't change) has really been an eye-opener for me. It's not just this one issue. But the Lord's Supper is a major issue, to be sure, since there's so much power available to us through observing it. And because of that, I'm trying to find out just how and when God intended for us to observe it. Somehow, I don't think the ritual my church goes through each Sunday with the men standing in front of the congregation for the requisite prayer, then passing around plates with small crackers then little cups of grape juice after another prayer, followed by the collection, is quite what God had in mind.

Anyway, I'm still exploring, so I'm still trying to look at this from all angles! Thanks again.

 

[riverpastor]

I believe a good discourse of the meal as it deals with Covenant can be found in Richard Booker's book The Miracle of the Scarlet Thread. There are nine parts to cutting Covenant. And one of those portions is the Covenant Meal. After the covenant was cut, the partakers would sit down at a meal as a memorium to symbolize that they are partaking of each other's graces.

When Jesus ate with the disciples, He was enacting the meal and also was symbolizing the Covenant fulfillment with them.

And once again, as we "remember" Covenant in the Communion, we re-enact this meal with the Lord at His table. It places us in the "ritual" (so to speak) of receiving the Covenant blessings and impartation. In other words, it becomes "effectual" in our lives through the Communion as we, by faith, partake of it with the Lord.

I encourage our members to visualize that they are with Christ and that He is breaking bread with them. It becomes more than just a symbolization to "remember what He did" but literally we partake of the meal WITH HIM - remember in the essence that we were in Him and with Him when Covenant was cut.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

Isn't it amazing how we complicate such a simple thing?

 

[Andrew]

Sorry, these two statements seem to contradict each other.

When you take communion with the Lord, you are showing principalities and powers that you are in covenant with God. That's my point. It's not just a meal. So whether the disciples were eating with friends (a normal meal) or eating with the Lord (communion) it spoke volumes.

My point was just that they tithed on the first day of the week b/c it was the first day of work, not a day of rest. They rested on the Sabbath. But if you want to tithe with rest, that's fine, too.

The first day of the week is Sunday, not Monday. Christians worship on Sunday becos it is the day our Lord arose and appeared. It's a new beginning. Sunday is also the "8th" day, 8 symbolising new beginnings in Bible numerics.

Some Christians, like 7 Day Adventist, who worship on Saturday do so to follow the Sabbath law of the Jews. They fail to realise that they are no longer under law but under grace. If they insist on observing the Sabbath, then to be consistent, they should also observe the other 612 laws of the OC.

It's just that the church I've come from has always claimed that Sunday is "the Lord's Day", and they use these verses about breaking bread to justify changing the day of rest from the 7th day to the 1st day, which I no longer believe is supported by Scripture.

The Sabbath is Saturday. So if one wants to observe Sabbath, then he should rest on Saturday like the non-Christian Jews do. But the point is that Christians are not under the law, and so dont observe the Sabbath. They simply worship on Sundays becos that is the day the Lord arose. Whether its called the Lord's Day or New Sabbath is besides the point and not important. I just call it Sunday.

The idea of resting one day out of seven is for our benefit. The Sabbath for man. God designed our bodies, and our bodies need to rest 1 day out of 7, or it'll break down. Just like the land, it needs to rest one year out of seven.

So Christians keep this benefit, not as a law but becos it is wise to rest. And we do so on Sunday becos when we worship God, we are at best at rest. We receive nourishment from the Word, our bodies are quickened by the Spirit, our minds are renewed, we receive revelation etc. in short we are rested and charged up for the challenges of the week ahead.

The idea of the Sabbath rest has a deeper truth too. As Christians who have trusted fully in the finished work of God, we sit down and rest as Jesus sat down after his sacrifice. IOW, we are saved and remain saved by grace through faith, not by works anymore. So we've entered the true Sabbath rest. We are in Christ. A similar shadow/type is explained in Hebrews with regard to the Israelites entering the land flowing with milk and honey — a type of rest becos they lived in houses they did not build and drank from wells they did not dig -- shadows of the finished work of the cross -- just receive salvation by faith, you dont have to do anything, its a gift.

So now we have the substance, not the shadow and types of the OT. So, to insist on worshipping on Saturday becos its the 'true Sabbath' is to take a step backwards into the shadowsof the OC when you already have the real substance.

If you want to meet on the 1st day, fine. I don't think God will say He doesn't accept your worship just b/c it's on Sunday instead of Saturday. In fact, in my case, with two small children, it's actually a lot of work to get to church, and is not a very restful activity for the Sabbath. I think, in my failed efforts to find a Sabbath church in our area that I feel comfortable with, God is saying that we're to stay with a Sunday church for a while (though not necessarily the one we've been attending).

I sincerely hope you do not revert back to the shadow of things that have already come.

Anyway, perhaps you would like to read my article on the Holy Communion and what it's really about:
http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/communion.html

 

[By Grace]

The first day of the week is Sunday, not Monday.

I agree.

Christians worship on Sunday becos it is the day our Lord arose and appeared. It's a new beginning. Sunday is also the "8th" day, 8 symbolising new beginnings in Bible numerics.

I don't have a problem with worshipping on Sunday, or on any other day, for that matter.

Some Christians, like 7 Day Adventist, who worship on Saturday do so to follow the Sabbath law of the Jews. They fail to realise that they are no longer under law but under grace. If they insist on observing the Sabbath, then to be consistent, they should also observe the other 612 laws of the OC.

I don't know much about what SDA's believe. But I never said that I believe I'm "under the law."

The Sabbath is Saturday. So if one wants to observe Sabbath, then he should rest on Saturday like the non-Christian Jews do. But the point is that Christians are not under the law, and so dont observe the Sabbath. They simply worship on Sundays becos that is the day the Lord arose. Whether its called the Lord's Day or New Sabbath is besides the point and not important. I just call it Sunday.

True, Christians are not required to legalistically observe the law for the sake of salvation, but that doesn't mean they can't follow God's commands. And again, I don't have a problem with worshipping on Sunday, or any other day. However, there are people in my (old) church who believe it's a sin to not worship at church on Sunday, b/c they believe it's "the Lord's Day." And this simply isn't biblical. They've replaced God's biblical commandments with their own, made-up commandments that are based on misinterpretations of Scripture. (Although, I'm not saying that's what you've done! This is just the background I've had.)

The idea of resting one day out of seven is for our benefit. The Sabbath for man. God designed our bodies, and our bodies need to rest 1 day out of 7, or it'll break down. Just like the land, it needs to rest one year out of seven.

So Christians keep this benefit, not as a law but becos it is wise to rest. And we do so on Sunday becos when we worship God, we are at best at rest. We receive nourishment from the Word, our bodies are quickened by the Spirit, our minds are renewed, we receive revelation etc. in short we are rested and charged up for the challenges of the week ahead.

I don't have a problem with your resting on Sunday. But God said the day of rest is the Sabbath, and even the NT believers continued to observe the Sabbath. Nowhere does it say that the Sabbath was done away with. It is a good idea to rest, and I just choose to do it on the day God set aside for it.

The idea of the Sabbath rest has a deeper truth too. As Christians who have trusted fully in the finished work of God, we sit down and rest as Jesus sat down after his sacrifice. IOW, we are saved and remain saved by grace through faith, not by works anymore. So we've entered the true Sabbath rest. We are in Christ. A similar shadow/type is explained in Hebrews with regard to the Israelites entering the land flowing with milk and honey — a type of rest becos they lived in houses they did not build and drank from wells they did not dig -- shadows of the finished work of the cross -- just receive salvation by faith, you dont have to do anything, its a gift.

Exactly.

So now we have the substance, not the shadow and types of the OT. So, to insist on worshipping on Saturday becos its the 'true Sabbath' is to take a step backwards into the shadowsof the OC when you already have the real substance.

I don't insist that anyone else rest on the Sabbath (except my children). I can't decide for anyone else what God wants for them. I don't even do it myself legalistically. I don't believe that I will go to hell if I don't rest on the Sabbath. I just enjoy trying to do things the way God intended. He says it's "forever". He says, like you did, that it's good for us to rest. I just choose to do it on the same day that God rested.

I sincerely hope you do not revert back to the shadow of things that have already come.

I'm not observing God's commandments as a way to earn my salvation. I am saved by the blood shed on the cross by God's Son. I am free! I am free to observe the Sabbath or not observe the Sabbath. I am free to celebrate biblical holidays or not. I am free to eat kosher or not. But I feel there are many blessings to be had, not the least of which is a "closer walk with Jesus" and a better understanding of my Lord and Saviour if I study God's word and try to obey His commands. Yes, if I thought I had to obey one command in order to be saved, then I would also have to obey them all. But I don't think I need to obey any commands to be saved. I think that once I'm saved (which I am), that obedience will be evidence of my faith. But it's not the cause of my salvation.

Anyway, perhaps you would like to read my article on the Holy Communion and what it's really about:
http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/communion.html

Thanks for the article--I learned a lot! And as RP suggested, I would like to read Booker's book. My mom has a copy and said she would loan it to me.