Hollywood and Washington, D.C.: proof positive that clirus is full of it

[Chamdar]

If prosperity is proof of virtue and poverty is the result of sin (and therefore the poor are deserve no charity or help), then how does clirus explain the rich and powerful who are sinful? Oh, wait, she can't.

 

[clirus]

If prosperity is proof of virtue and poverty is the result of sin (and therefore the poor are deserve no charity or help), then how does clirus explain the rich and powerful who are sinful? Oh, wait, she can't.

There is a world of difference between prosperity and wealth. I believe Christians are prosperous, but most are not wealthy.

I believe most poverty is produced by sin/evil, but some poverty is due to uncontrollable situations.

The Bible say both the rich and poor are faced with great temptation.

Proverbs 30:8-9 states, "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? Or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

Many rich and powerful people got that way by taking advantage of the weaknesses of people (pornography, alcohol, drugs, health care, etc.)

I do not believe most Christians are not physically wealthy people but are very spiritually wealthy.

The Bible says "The wages of sin is death", but that does not mean death is proof of sin.

The Bible seems to take the negative approach on most issues, by stating what bad things that will happen if the commandments/doctrines are not followed. There are few cases where earthly promises are made if the commandments/doctrines are followed.

 

[Ar Cosc]

So why do you oppose the redistribution of physical wealth, if you think that christianity only creates spiritual wealth?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe most poverty is produced by sin/evil, but some poverty is due to uncontrollable situations.

The most and some distinction is very important. I've asked you several times to come up evidence for your claim that most poverty is the consequence of sinfulness. To this day I am still waiting. I suspect you will never produce the evidence, and so your argument is not compelling, as boringly repetitive as it is.

The Bible says "The wages of sin is death", but that does not mean death is proof of sin.

That doesn't seem to be how you approach the situation. Wherever there is poverty to be accounted for, you seem to assume that sinfulness is the cause. Wherever there is death, you seem to assume that sinfulness is at the heart of it. Why is that when faced with a situation involving death, disease or poverty you immediately assume sinfulness when you know and acknowledge that none of these things are necessarily proof of sin? It's contradictory.

 

[QuakerPete]

The Bible says "The wages of sin is death", but that does not mean death is proof of sin.

The Bible seems to take the negative approach on most issues, by stating what bad things that will happen if the commandments/doctrines are not followed. There are few cases where earthly promises are made if the commandments/doctrines are followed.

I think you're confusing physical and spiritual death

 

[clirus]

I think you're confusing physical and spiritual death

Some Christians believe the death is only spiritual death, but I believe things like AIDS, STDS, etc. prove the death is both physical and spriitual.

 

[lemmings]

Some Christians believe the death is only spiritual death, but I believe things like AIDS, STDS, etc. prove the death is both physical and spriitual.

Viruses, bacteria, and parasites can kill souls?

 

[clirus]

Viruses, bacteria, and parasites can kill souls?

Spiritual sin kills the soul and physical sin kills the physical body but the wages of sin is death in both cases.

The difference in physical sin and spiritual sin is best illustrated by the following.

Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. --- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

 

[Axioma]

the weaknesses of people (pornography, alcohol, drugs, health care, etc.)

Oh, clirus. Never change.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Spiritual sin kills the soul and physical sin kills the physical body but the wages of sin is death in both cases.

The difference in physical sin and spiritual sin is best illustrated by the following.

Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. --- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

How can sin cause both physical death and spiritual death? We can suppose that, since you've distinguished between physical life and spiritual life, we can have separate and not wholly contingent instances of physical death and spiritual death. In which case it follows that one can die spiritually via sin and yet persist living physically. Thus, one could also be in a state of spiritual 'disease, death and poverty' without being in a state of physical disease, death and poverty. If this is true, then it is indeed possible for the faithful to be physically poor and the sinful to be physically wealthy; and this runs contrary to your assumption that most poverty is due to sinfulness.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

The Bible seems to take the negative approach on most issues, by stating what bad things that will happen if the commandments/doctrines are not followed. There are few cases where earthly promises are made if the commandments/doctrines are followed.

Sorry clirus, but

 

[clirus]

How can sin cause both physical death and spiritual death? We can suppose that, since you've distinguished between physical life and spiritual life, we can have separate and not wholly contingent instances of physical death and spiritual death. In which case it follows that one can die spiritually via sin and yet persist living physically. Thus, one could also be in a state of spiritual 'disease, death and poverty' without being in a state of physical disease, death and poverty. If this is true, then it is indeed possible for the faithful to be physically poor and the sinful to be physically wealthy; and this runs contrary to your assumption that most poverty is due to sinfulness.

There are just too many instances where physical disease, death, destruction and poverty are directly linked with things the bible calls physical sin/evil.

Sin/evil can produce both physical wealth and poverty.

Many of the wealthy got their wealth by taking advantage of the wine, women and song weaknesses of the poor.

Proverbs 30:8-9 states, "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? Or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

The middle ground of prosperity is where most Christians live.

 

[Gishin]

Name these instances.

 

[clirus]

Name these instances.

AIDS is a disease that is directly linked to homosexuality.

STDS are diseases that are directly linked to adultery.

Illegitimate children are directly linked to adultery and are instant poverty.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

AIDS is a disease that is directly linked to homosexuality.

Wrong. It is directly related to sexuality.

STDS are diseases that are directly linked to adultery.

Wrong. STDs are directly linked to sexual contact, marital and non-marital.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

There are just too many instances where physical disease, death, destruction and poverty are directly linked with things the bible calls physical sin/evil.

And yet, even though the evidence for these 'too many instances' is apparently so abundant, you've yet to provide a single shred of empirical evidence that supports your claim that most poverty is the direct consequence of sinfulness. So excuse me if I don't feel your claim is in anyway compelling, because it's not. It's your speculation, nothing more.

The middle ground of prosperity is where most Christians live.

I challenge you to provide empirical evidence that most Christians live in the 'middle ground' of prosperity. I wager you won't, or can't.

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

AIDS is a disease that is directly linked to homosexuality.

Why do you continue your dishonesty here? You've been called on this many times before.

HIV doesn't give two whoops about sexual orientation. It's a blood-borne pathogen. Lesbians, by the way, have the lowest level of transmission of HIV. Does God love lesbianism?

 

[marshlewis]

The most and some distinction is very important. I've asked you several times to come up evidence for your claim that most poverty is the consequence of sinfulness. To this day I am still waiting. I suspect you will never produce the evidence, and so your argument is not compelling, as boringly repetitive as it is.

Of course no evidence will be produced. I wonder if clirus even understands what you mean by evidence. What clirus writes strongly suggests this in my opinion.