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The problem with editing has to do with my old browser and old computer. I got a different old computer now.Well Done! While I might differ on the interpretation of John 16 that you gave you show that you are well read and articulate.
I strongly agree with conscientious opposition to worldly conformity.
That being said, I don't believe in conservative people trying to police others over subjective externals. One person's supposed bad habit might be another person's chosen witness means (e.g., Christian fish tattoo on wrist <><, etc., or whatever).
What we need to concentrate on individually is daily prayer and Bible reading, and thes activities are more likely to produce God honoring strong witness, than being negative about other people's subjective externals.
The problem with editing has to do with my old browser and old computer. I got a different old computer now.
Please let me know what your issue is with what I said about that passage in John 16. It was not too important to the subject, so it may not have even been stated the way I meant it.
I always like the discussions we have, and look forward to reading what you have to say.
This lack of any humility makes the person who has no understanding to be proud of his holiness. He is made aware of that, tries to humble himself, and then becomes proud of his humility. A preacher told me that the crucifixion of the flesh does not come as we are stuffed away in some monastery, but this comes when we are out and around other people. That is how the flesh is crucified, and how we are divested of SELF as the ruling power in the heart of man.Separate yourself from the world and see how long it takes for you to be proud of your holiness.
There are only two results from such practices: you are robbed of all peace because you can't live up to the standard or you become so self-righteous that you rely on your self instead of on Christ.
As I guessed, I have no problem agreeing with the way you are describing it.... I believe you used the passage the way it is commonly used to state that the Spirit is reproving the world of sin. But if you look in your margin the word means convince.
The proper interpretation is that the Spirit comes to the chosen sinner and convinces him of his sin, of the righteousness of Christ as his only justification before God and of the fact that judgment is past for the believer...
No he meant kool-aid. It's a figure of speech.
As for alcohol, are you against any and all alcohol consumption?
While I have never been drunk, I do have a wine cooler every now and then. Maybe some champagne on our anniversary or for another celebratory event.
I have nothing against alcohol as long as it's in moderation. You drunk not to get drunk, but just a glass here or there. My grandfather would have one beer a week, on Sundays with our pasta dinner (we're Italian) as well as maybe a glass of wine for Thanksgiving or Christmas. My grandfather was captain of the ushers for 25 years at the Catholic church that I grew up in.
My Lutheran friend, please don't be offended by what I am going to say here. I remember your wonderful salvation testimony, and for that I think kindly of you if you have a wine cooler here and there or not. I'm not anybody to tell you what to do, but I have studied this subject extensively and for many years gave myself permission to indulge in moderate alcohol consumption using the same arguments from Romans 14 and other passages which people in this thread are using to make allowances for ungodly pleasures. Alcohol is a self-indulgent thing. Noah was a righteous man, he got drunk, and God did not condemn him for it but it caused a lot of hard consequences because one of his grandsons was cursed for looking on Noah's drunken nakedness. The Bible is clear that we are supposed to stay away from alcohol. The people who say things like "he that condemns not himself in the things that they allow" and stuff like that to use it as an excuse for indulging with alcohol are still acting worldly, ungodly, when they indulge. I'm not going to say you are a wicked person if you have a drink or two now or then. I can't say it's ok and I can't say it's good and I can't say God does not care if you indulge in moderation. That's another verse people use to excuse a drink of two..."all things in moderation" or "let your moderation be known unto all men". I took college classes supporting those kind of arguments, and I was very good at making those arguments before I took the college classes in a Christian College. It's wrong. We are called to holiness, not to compromise so we can have a social drink like the rest of the world and go with the flow of the gathering.
Yes I am against all alcohol consumption. I think it's clear the Bible is against it. When Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, I don't think he was talking about alcoholic wine. Grape juice was called wine in Bible times. When Jesus made water into wine at the wedding, He performed that miracle in vessels which had been purified according to mosaic law. That means no leavening, which would cause alcohol in the wine. There is one passage in the Old Testament where God told the Israelites to buy wine and strong drink to celebrate, but that was a one time command which was to be obeyed. Everything else in the Bible is against indulging in intoxicating substances, specifically mentioning alcohol.
Again, my Lutheran friend, this is not an issue we have to be enemies over. When people get offended by my position on this issue, that's a good sign that they have a much deeper pride issue in their hearts than the issue of moderate alcohol usage. I hope you can see I am not against you, I am against alcohol. I will not go to any restaurant, bowling alley, or sporting event where alcohol is served. If I could, I would only buy my groceries from stores that do not sell alcohol, but those are hard to find. I think there is only one grocery store near me that does not sell alcohol, and I can't shop there all the time. I will not allow alcohol in my house, I won't even pick up a returnable beer can to claim the 10 cent deposit.
I want the whole world to know I am property of the one who bought me with His life's blood and justifies me in His resurrection, and I do everything I can to avoid any appearance that my affections are on the things of this world which will be burned away, more than my affections are on the treasure I hope is being laid up in heaven for me by my own efforts. Jesus said I'm supposed to lay up treasure in heaven, where my treasure is there will my heart be also....there are rewards to be gained and opportunities to be missed in the way we handle our time.
If family gatherings are going to have alcohol involved, I won't be there and they know it's because I'm a Christian. If they think that's bad of me, well...I am more concerned about what God thinks. I can't place family affections above my affection for the one who said "if any man love father or mother, sister or brother, more than me, he is not worthy to be my disciple". We are even supposed to hate our own life, and that's the old me, the self-centered me, the things that will be judged and burned away, the things I get no reward for in heaven, the things that mean I could have used the time better to do things that would remain in heaven forever honoring to God. Every word matters, every thought matters, every action matters. They will be either remembered in heaven as honorable with rewards accordingly, or they will be found dishonorable to God and burned up and forgotten with no reward for the time wasted in them.
Many here think I'm being judgmental or self-righteous or whatever. They are wrong. I simply desire to serve God and honor Him in everything I do, everything I say, and everywhere I go. I'll be the first to admit I fall short and deserve to die for my sins NOW. Every morning, as quickly as I can remember, I thank God for his mercy because the only thing new in this world is God's mercy by which we are not consumed. We need His mercy every moment because we are sinners. I know I'm a wicked sinner and I deserve to die for my sin now and there is never a moment of the time God gave me when I don't deserve to die and burn in Hell for my sin. I know I'm ugly at heart, and I despise myself for it, and thank God for everything He gives me no matter how bad or hard it may seem because it's better than I deserve.
I can't say I approve of moderate drinking, but you sure gave a fine salvation testimony and I look forward to talking with you in heaven one day if I never meet you on earth.
St.Joe,
There is a terrible thing that happened in Guyana almost 40 years ago. A fellow named Jim Jones set up a cult colony (Jonestown,) and was doing questionable things. At one point, a US Congressman went to Guyana to see if something should be done about it. The long story short was that they shot him to death, and his entourage, then made a suicide pact. It is an erroneous report, but, supposedly, the whole 900+ group of people in the cult colony drank Kool Aid laced with Cyanide poison. They found the people all lying in family groups in multiple layers, rotting in the heat.
The error may be considered a questionable conclusion, but that report is what everyone uses for the quip. If you are SO SOLD OUT to your CULT, you will drink what you know to be poison laced Kool Aid, if you are told to do that by trusted leaders.
My Lutheran friend, please don't be offended by what I am going to say here. I remember your wonderful salvation testimony, and for that I think kindly of you if you have a wine cooler here and there or not. I'm not anybody to tell you what to do, but I have studied this subject extensively and for many years gave myself permission to indulge in moderate alcohol consumption using the same arguments from Romans 14 and other passages which people in this thread are using to make allowances for ungodly pleasures. Alcohol is a self-indulgent thing. Noah was a righteous man, he got drunk, and God did not condemn him for it but it caused a lot of hard consequences because one of his grandsons was cursed for looking on Noah's drunken nakedness. The Bible is clear that we are supposed to stay away from alcohol. The people who say things like "he that condemns not himself in the things that they allow" and stuff like that to use it as an excuse for indulging with alcohol are still acting worldly, ungodly, when they indulge. I'm not going to say you are a wicked person if you have a drink or two now or then. I can't say it's ok and I can't say it's good and I can't say God does not care if you indulge in moderation. That's another verse people use to excuse a drink of two..."all things in moderation" or "let your moderation be known unto all men". I took college classes supporting those kind of arguments, and I was very good at making those arguments before I took the college classes in a Christian College. It's wrong. We are called to holiness, not to compromise so we can have a social drink like the rest of the world and go with the flow of the gathering.
Yes I am against all alcohol consumption. I think it's clear the Bible is against it. When Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake, I don't think he was talking about alcoholic wine. Grape juice was called wine in Bible times. When Jesus made water into wine at the wedding, He performed that miracle in vessels which had been purified according to mosaic law. That means no leavening, which would cause alcohol in the wine. There is one passage in the Old Testament where God told the Israelites to buy wine and strong drink to celebrate, but that was a one time command which was to be obeyed. Everything else in the Bible is against indulging in intoxicating substances, specifically mentioning alcohol.
Again, my Lutheran friend, this is not an issue we have to be enemies over. When people get offended by my position on this issue, that's a good sign that they have a much deeper pride issue in their hearts than the issue of moderate alcohol usage. I hope you can see I am not against you, I am against alcohol. I will not go to any restaurant, bowling alley, or sporting event where alcohol is served. If I could, I would only buy my groceries from stores that do not sell alcohol, but those are hard to find. I think there is only one grocery store near me that does not sell alcohol, and I can't shop there all the time. I will not allow alcohol in my house, I won't even pick up a returnable beer can to claim the 10 cent deposit.
I want the whole world to know I am property of the one who bought me with His life's blood and justifies me in His resurrection, and I do everything I can to avoid any appearance that my affections are on the things of this world which will be burned away, more than my affections are on the treasure I hope is being laid up in heaven for me by my own efforts. Jesus said I'm supposed to lay up treasure in heaven, where my treasure is there will my heart be also....there are rewards to be gained and opportunities to be missed in the way we handle our time.
If family gatherings are going to have alcohol involved, I won't be there and they know it's because I'm a Christian. If they think that's bad of me, well...I am more concerned about what God thinks. I can't place family affections above my affection for the one who said "if any man love father or mother, sister or brother, more than me, he is not worthy to be my disciple". We are even supposed to hate our own life, and that's the old me, the self-centered me, the things that will be judged and burned away, the things I get no reward for in heaven, the things that mean I could have used the time better to do things that would remain in heaven forever honoring to God. Every word matters, every thought matters, every action matters. They will be either remembered in heaven as honorable with rewards accordingly, or they will be found dishonorable to God and burned up and forgotten with no reward for the time wasted in them.
Many here think I'm being judgmental or self-righteous or whatever. They are wrong. I simply desire to serve God and honor Him in everything I do, everything I say, and everywhere I go. I'll be the first to admit I fall short and deserve to die for my sins NOW. Every morning, as quickly as I can remember, I thank God for his mercy because the only thing new in this world is God's mercy by which we are not consumed. We need His mercy every moment because we are sinners. I know I'm a wicked sinner and I deserve to die for my sin now and there is never a moment of the time God gave me when I don't deserve to die and burn in Hell for my sin. I know I'm ugly at heart, and I despise myself for it, and thank God for everything He gives me no matter how bad or hard it may seem because it's better than I deserve.
I can't say I approve of moderate drinking, but you sure gave a fine salvation testimony and I look forward to talking with you in heaven one day if I never meet you on earth.
Not offended at all.
When I say here or there, I mean if I have one wine cooler a year, that's saying much. I am not an alcohol drinker, never have been and never really will be.
I do remember the event, I think it was the Jim Jones massacre, no? But I didn't know the Kool Aid quip was a figure of speech based on that event. That's awful.
One of the dangers of holiness is that it can re-introduce a works based salvation...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-vsIt2j06k
This lack of any humility makes the person who has no understanding to be proud of his holiness. He is made aware of that, tries to humble himself, and then becomes proud of his humility. A preacher told me that the crucifixion of the flesh does not come as we are stuffed away in some monastery, but this comes when we are out and around other people. That is how the flesh is crucified, and how we are divested of SELF as the ruling power in the heart of man.
We may think we are now something, because we perceive God has chosen to teach us something of His truth. We are somewhat puffed up, and God must send someone to put a hole in that bubble. For John Bunyan, this came as a woman he had nothing, but disdain for, rightly rebuked him. That is right. Someone you least expect, and least wish to do the chastising, may be the person God sends to humble you, if you refuse to learn a lesson God sends your way.
Don't confuse living a godly life with holiness.
(Tit 2:1) But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
(Tit 2:2) That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
(Tit 2:3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
(Tit 2:4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
(Tit 2:5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
(Tit 2:6) Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
(Tit 2:7) In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
(Tit 2:8) Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
(Tit 2:9) Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
(Tit 2:10) Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
(Tit 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Tit 2:12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
You can separate yourself from the world but the problem of your sin still remains. Moreover if you think you make yourself pleasing to God by your holy consecration you have not yet learned Christ. If you think that by being "holy" God will be more pleased with you or bless and use you more then you have not yet learned Christ.
The New Testament teaches us to rest in Christ alone for all things and to live as though we do.
I think this post ranks right up there with the most ungodly post I have ever seen on this website.
I do remember the event, I think it was the Jim Jones massacre, no? But I didn't know the Kool Aid quip was a figure of speech based on that event. That's awful.
Sorry but I did not understand this. Could you say it differently? Maybe there is a question in there I did not get.It's unbelievable I would use a quote from this man,but what this context from you and Twin sounds like is living life past your pay grade quote Obama.
He died for sins yet to be committed? Which ones are those? Can you name them for us? Theft? Murder? Fornication? Drunkenness? Lasciviousness?
It really doesn't matter, it's all covered by His blood, right?
Please show me in the Bible where it says Christ died for sins yet to be committed, so I know it's ok when I sin.
Faith without works is dead. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
You can't be a disciple of Christ if you are un-disciplined. If you are undisciplined and you are a child of God with Jesus Christ living in you by His Spirit, He is going to chastise you until you are disciplined. God calls us to holiness, like it or not. When you like it, you can't get enough of it. When you don't like it, you try to make excuses for being undisciplined. I'm sure you are a wonderful disciple of Jesus Christ and that you are disciplined by Him. I simply don't know what you are trying to prove, so I guess I'm hearing you saying things you really are not saying. God loves you and so do I.
I'm using a lot of "ifs" here because I'm giving you every possible benefit of a doubt in desire of believing that you are not tolerating sin in your life. I'm sure you are not tolerating sin in your life. I simply don't know what you are fighting against in this thread.
Sorry but I did not understand this. Could you say it differently? Maybe there is a question in there I did not get.
Help me out.
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