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hmmmmm.....millenium anybody?

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bigJerm

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im not sure if this is the right room for this topic...but here goes.......ive been reading alot of Revelation and i have a question concerning the millenium kingdom....well actually more about heaven....ok....so when a christian dies right now he goes to be with Lord in heaven...ok.....if thats true does everybody just vacate heaven for the millenium?.....or is where the Lord is right now a different heaven from the "new earth and new heaven" that God creates after the millenium....i think i just anwered my own question..........anyways is it logical to assume that everybody has to leave heaven to reign in the millenium?....seems kind of anticlimactic.:thumbsup:
 

CShephard53

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1: God is outside of time.
2: 1 Corinthians 13:12. We're not going to understand it until we get to heaven. I don't even know what to think anymore about what exactly is going to happen. I wouldn't put too much effort into trying to understand it... but that's just me.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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There is no future earthly millennium.

The scene depicting the millennium takes place in heaven. The events described are heavenly events. Christ reigns presently, even since his conquest of sin, death, and the devil and ascension to the right hand of the Father. The kingdom of God is a present reality, manifest here through the church.
:thumbsup: I agree, at least according to this translation/interpretation concerning the "2 Covenants". :)

John 11:48 if we may let Him alone thus, all will believe in Him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both Our Place/topon <5117> and nation.'

Reve 12:7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his Messengers [NC Assembly] did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers, 8 and they did not prevail, nor was Their [OC Assembly] Place/topoV<5117> found any more in the Heaven;

Reve 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the land and the heaven did flee away, and Place/topoV <5117> was not found for Them;
 
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HisdaughterJen

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im not sure if this is the right room for this topic...but here goes.......ive been reading alot of Revelation and i have a question concerning the millenium kingdom....well actually more about heaven....ok....so when a christian dies right now he goes to be with Lord in heaven...ok.....if thats true does everybody just vacate heaven for the millenium?.....or is where the Lord is right now a different heaven from the "new earth and new heaven" that God creates after the millenium....i think i just anwered my own question..........anyways is it logical to assume that everybody has to leave heaven to reign in the millenium?....seems kind of anticlimactic.:thumbsup:
Nope...

When you die in Christ, you go to heaven (paradise) as the thief on the cross who believed did.
Soon, Jesus will appear with those saints, their bodies will rise from the grave and will be changed to a body like that of Jesus -immortal. We who are alive will also be changed and meet the Lord in the air. He will take us to the city prepared for us in heaven, the New Jerusalem. We will not leave it. We will remain there reigning over the earth from there until the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven at the end of the millenium.

Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.



The "white robes" washed in the blood of the Lamb are given at the 5th seal prior to wrath:
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


These white-robed people are seen before the throne and the Lamb in heaven:

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


Luk 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.&#8221;

This is a resurrection and gathering to rooms prior to wrath:

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.


He will keep His promise:

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Our home is in heaven:


Phl 3:20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Hbr 11:16Instead, they were longing for a better country-a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

1Th 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1Th 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


1Cr 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[fn6] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
1Cr 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cr 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed&#8211;
1Cr 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.


There is a glorious appearing and also a physical coming of Jesus:

Tts 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Mat 24:29 &#8220;Immediately after the distress of those days

&#8220; &#8216;the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.&#8217;[fn3]

Mat 24:30 &#8220;At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.



Mat 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?translation=NIV&book=Rev&chapter=3#
Bad translation I am afraid.
That just concerns those Jews in the Land of Israel/Judea/Jerusalem. ;)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 3:10 That you keep the Word of the endurance of Me, also I shall be keeping thee out of the hour of the trial, of the one-being-about to be coming upon of the whole being-homed/oikoumenhV <3625>, to try the ones down-homing/ kat-oikountaV <2730> upon of the LAND.

Luke 21:20 `And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments, then know that come nigh did her desolation; 21 then those in JUDEA, let them flee to the mountains; and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;
 
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HisdaughterJen

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whoa those are some awesome verses!!!!!!
...from an AWESOME GOD!

He's got some wonderful things planned for us because we love Him!

1Cr 2:9 However, as it is written:

&#8220;No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him&#8221;[fn2]&#8211;
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I believe the milleneum and "rapture" are both "fairy tales" LOL.
Out with the OLD in with the NEW. :)

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 21:5 And as some saying about the Temple that to stones beautiful, and up-placings/anaqhmasin <334> it has been adorned, He said,

Revelation 22:3 and every down-place/kat-anaqema<2652> there shall Not Be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him
 
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MrSnow

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I agree with Gratia and LittleLamb.

Read the whole New Testament...Christ IS REIGNING right now! He will also reign in the future...because His reign is everlasting.

I would like to bring to y'all's attention a passage which, to me, conclusively proves that the "millenium" is now.

Matt 12:25-29
Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Christ tells us in that passage that the reason He is able to cast out demons and wreak havoc in Satan's "house" is because He has bound Satan. And since He has bound Satan He is now able to plunder Satan's house.

Compare that to Rev 20.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I agree with Gratia and LittleLamb.

Read the whole New Testament...Christ IS REIGNING right now! He will also reign in the future...because His reign is everlasting.

I would like to bring to y'all's attention a passage which, to me, conclusively proves that the "millenium" is now.

Matt 12:25-29
Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Christ tells us in that passage that the reason He is able to cast out demons and wreak havoc in Satan's "house" is because He has bound Satan. And since He has bound Satan He is now able to plunder Satan's house.

Compare that to Rev 20.
If the millenium is now, then why is satan still roaming about? He's supposed to be bound for a thousand years and then released for a little while. The strong man hasn't been bound yet.

If the millenium is now, where's the millenial temple with the sacrifices mentioned in Zech 14 and Ez 40-48? Is Jerusalem secure (Zech 14)?

If the millenium is now, why aren't people living beyond 100 regularly:

Isa 65:20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach* a hundred will be considered accursed.

Notice, there will still be death during the millenium because death and hades haven't been destroyed which happens at the end of the millenium according to Rev 21.

Where's the dead who come to life and reign with Christ for the millenium if the millenium is now? (Rev 21)

When did Jesus come on the clouds and destroy the beast/false prophet and their unholy army if the millenium is now?

You guys have got some 'splainin' to do!!!!!
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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HisdaughterJen said:
If the millenium is now, then why is satan still roaming about? He's supposed to be bound for a thousand years and then released for a little while. The strong man hasn't been bound yet.

Satan is bound in the heavenly realms. That is where the millennium is depected in Revelation. And indeed, Christ, through his crucifixion and resurrection, won the victory of sin, death, and the devil. Even during his ministry, Christ say Satan fall like a star from heaven. Christ has established his lordship; Satan's forces are being pushed back. The kingdom of God has come in the person of Jesus Christ.

And never forget that a chained animal can be just as dangerous, sometimes more vicious, than a loose one.

If the millenium is now, where's the millenial temple with the sacrifices mentioned in Zech 14 and Ez 40-48? Is Jerusalem secure (Zech 14)?

Who says those verses receive their fulfillment during the millennial age? Who says those prophecies aren't contingent on the Jewish people's response to Yahweh and his law? Who says they aren't representations of the heavenly tabernacle depicted throughout Isaiah and Revelation, and referenced in Hebrews 9 (my view)?

If the millenium is now, why aren't people living beyond 100 regularly:

Isa 65:20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach* a hundred will be considered accursed.

Who says this isn't a poetic description of the wonders brought about by Christ's resurrection?

Where's the dead who come to life and reign with Christ for the millenium if the millenium is now? (Rev 21)

The word resurrection is routinely used throughout the New Testament to refer to the new life we enjoy in Christ. The first resurrection is the resurrection to new life; the first death is biological death; the second resurrection is the resurrection of the body; the second death is eternal damnation in hell.

When did Jesus come on the clouds and destroy the beast/false prophet and their unholy army if the millenium is now?

This only needs be the case if you take Revelation 20 to come chronologically after Revelation 19. But revelation is built chronologically, but in cycles of seven. Note all the parallels between the final victory over the beast in Revelation 12, with almost identical phrases in chapter 19. Chapter 20 is a summary of the whole apocalyptic scenes from ch. 5-19, with the conflict at the end of the millennium paralleling the final battle between Christ and antichrist.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Satan is bound in the heavenly realms. That is where the millennium is depected in Revelation. And indeed, Christ, through his crucifixion and resurrection, won the victory of sin, death, and the devil. Even during his ministry, Christ say Satan fall like a star from heaven. Christ has established his lordship; Satan's forces are being pushed back. The kingdom of God has come in the person of Jesus Christ.

How many levels of heaven are there? Paul said he saw the 3rd heaven. Satan was kicked out of the highest heaven which is what Christ was referring to in seeing Satan fall. He has a dominion above the earth - in the air or (high places) or even "heavens":
Eph 6:12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

He will be cast further down to the earth in the not too distant future.


And never forget that a chained animal can be just as dangerous, sometimes more vicious, than a loose one.

Remember the demon that said to Jesus:
Mat 8:29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

While demons and every creature bows to the will of Jesus/God, Satan is not bound (can do no harm/has no influence) until the millenium begins.




Who says those verses receive their fulfillment during the millennial age? Who says those prophecies aren't contingent on the Jewish people's response to Yahweh and his law? Who says they aren't representations of the heavenly tabernacle depicted throughout Isaiah and Revelation, and referenced in Hebrews 9 (my view)?

Because they have end times/millenium written all over them.



Who says this isn't a poetic description of the wonders brought about by Christ's resurrection?

You're joking, right?



The word resurrection is routinely used throughout the New Testament to refer to the new life we enjoy in Christ. The first resurrection is the resurrection to new life; the first death is biological death; the second resurrection is the resurrection of the body; the second death is eternal damnation in hell.

Well, it looks like you need to do a little more digging and study on that...



This only needs be the case if you take Revelation 20 to come chronologically after Revelation 19. But revelation is built chronologically, but in cycles of seven. Note all the parallels between the final victory over the beast in Revelation 12, with almost identical phrases in chapter 19. Chapter 20 is a summary of the whole apocalyptic scenes from ch. 5-19, with the conflict at the end of the millennium paralleling the final battle between Christ and antichrist.

I see words but they're not making any sense to me...sorry.
 
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heymikey80

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If the millenium is now, then why is satan still roaming about? He's supposed to be bound for a thousand years and then released for a little while. The strong man hasn't been bound yet.
He's restrained a great deal by comparison with ancient times. Most of the world is monotheistic. Human sacrifice cults are largely vanished.

I still look at the phrase "First Resurrection" and I can't see how ancient readers could understand this to be different from the time of Christ's Resurrection.
If the millenium is now, where's the millenial temple with the sacrifices mentioned in Zech 14 and Ez 40-48? Is Jerusalem secure (Zech 14)?
Ez 40-48 was the temple promised on condition: "As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out." Ez 43:10-11

Zech 14:6-7 refers to certain characteristics of New Jerusalem (Rev 22). Do you expect nightlong light from millenial Jerusalem?
If the millenium is now, why aren't people living beyond 100 regularly:

Isa 65:20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach* a hundred will be considered accursed.

Notice, there will still be death during the millenium because death and hades haven't been destroyed which happens at the end of the millenium according to Rev 21.
Mmm. So resurrected believers in the millenium still undergo death?

What about Paul's "power of an indestructible life" in 1 Cor 15? How does this fit with Rev 20:6, "Over such the second death has no power"?

To amils there are clearly things that ultimately happen in this current time period that weren't true at the start. Human lifespans have lengthened significantly; I don't think the prospect of hundred-year lifespans is that far off.
Where's the dead who come to life and reign with Christ for the millenium if the millenium is now? (Rev 21)
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Mt 27:52-53
When did Jesus come on the clouds and destroy the beast/false prophet and their unholy army if the millenium is now?
Why do you think that's before the Millenium, and not after? Rv 20:7
 
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HisdaughterJen

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He's restrained a great deal by comparison with ancient times. Most of the world is monotheistic. Human sacrifice cults are largely vanished.

I still look at the phrase "First Resurrection" and I can't see how ancient readers could understand this to be different from the time of Christ's Resurrection.

Ez 40-48 was the temple promised on condition: "As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out." Ez 43:10-11

Zech 14:6-7 refers to certain characteristics of New Jerusalem (Rev 22). Do you expect nightlong light from millenial Jerusalem?

Mmm. So resurrected believers in the millenium still undergo death?

What about Paul's "power of an indestructible life" in 1 Cor 15? How does this fit with Rev 20:6, "Over such the second death has no power"?

To amils there are clearly things that ultimately happen in this current time period that weren't true at the start. Human lifespans have lengthened significantly; I don't think the prospect of hundred-year lifespans is that far off.

The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Mt 27:52-53

Why do you think that's before the Millenium, and not after? Rv 20:7
Just because human sacrifices aren't taking place on a regular basis, you are assuming that Satan is bound???? That's absurd. It's like saying my husband only beats me once a month so he's not an abuser.

If the millenial temple is "conditional", then the Bible says over and over that they meet the condition in Zechariah...all of the minor prophets, in fact, parts of the New Testament. God is not done with Israel. God knew what would happen from the beginning. He knew that they would choose Him and that there will be a millenial temple. It's odd to say otherwise against so much Biblical evidence.


No, resurrected believers can never die. I didn't say that resurrected believers die. I said that those on earth during the millenium will die because the Bible says so. You are confused as to what group is where in the millenium.

You mentioned those who came out of the tombs at Jesus death and appeared to many. This will happen again on a worldwide scale at Jesus' glorious appearing. We will also go in the same way that they and Jesus did.

You asked how I know that Christ comes and destroys the beast and false prophet before the millenium and not after...

because it lines up with what is said about events surrounding the return of the Lord which is on the morning of the millenium and not when the day is over.
 
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heymikey80

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Something to keep in mind: I'm not attacking the return of Christ. I'm challenging premillenialism claiming sole Scriptural support for itself. I consider both views to have Scriptural backing. I think both have weaknesses. I'm declaredly amil. Most people don't get what that means in the first place, so the argument normally involves educating them what the view is.
Just because human sacrifices aren't taking place on a regular basis, you are assuming that Satan is bound???? That's absurd. It's like saying my husband only beats me once a month so he's not an abuser.
:scratch: I point out facts and you say that's the only fact. It's not.

Scripture states Satan is restrained at this time.
And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 2 Th 2:6-8
If the millenial temple is "conditional", then the Bible says over and over that they meet the condition in Zechariah.
:confused: Don't you think, if Ezekiel describes the conditions for the millenial temple, that his conditions must be satisfied?
..all of the minor prophets, in fact, parts of the New Testament. God is not done with Israel. God knew what would happen from the beginning. He knew that they would choose Him and that there will be a millenial temple. It's odd to say otherwise against so much Biblical evidence.
Simple. It's not "the millenial temple." It was a temple promised them on a condition, prior to the Babylonian Exile.

There's zero direct connection between Ezekiel's temple and the Millenium. None.

Why would I need to connect Ezekiel with Zechariah's references?
No, resurrected believers can never die. I didn't say that resurrected believers die. I said that those on earth during the millenium will die because the Bible says so. You are confused as to what group is where in the millenium.
Is the Millenium not preceded by the First Resurrection? What's up with those resurrected people? Are you saying the unsaved are given long life during the Millenium ...?
You mentioned those who came out of the tombs at Jesus death and appeared to many. This will happen again on a worldwide scale at Jesus' glorious appearing. We will also go in the same way that they and Jesus did.
That was the First Resurrection. Which is immediately followed by the Millenium.
You asked how I know that Christ comes and destroys the beast and false prophet before the millenium and not after...

because it lines up with what is said about events surrounding the return of the Lord which is on the morning of the millenium and not when the day is over.
The vision doesn't work chronologically for premillenialism. Take Rev 12:1-6 for instance. The ten-horned beast is there for the birth of the male child. Who do you think this future ruler would be? What point in time is meant, then?

What we're reading is a recounting of a vision. It has successive waves of images. They're not demanding a precise chronological order.
 
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MrSnow

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The strong man hasn't been bound yet.

Mat 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

On what basis do you say that the Strong Man has not been bound?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Mat 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

On what basis do you say that the Strong Man has not been bound?
ok...#1. Look around. Things are getting worse and worse. On what basis do you think that Satan is bound?

#2: There are so many passages about how God is going to deal with Israel for a millenium and what will happen during that time that I don't know where to begin.
 
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