Hm...can I please get some thoughts?

Well according to what it takes to be saved Biblically the simple answer to this is yes and they in fact remain saved. Submission to God's will is not a requirement for salvation, it should however be a result thereof.

flesh99 said:

Well according to what it takes to be saved Biblically the simple answer to this is yes and they in fact remain saved. Submission to God's will is not a requirement for salvation, it should however be a result thereof.

Click to expand...

The words of Christ on this matter:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Click to expand...

I think you are very, very wrong . . .


Peace in Him!

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I think that according to the Scripture I am very very right. Are you denying that all it takes is belief and confession? Can you add anything to Salvation? I think not. Stressing that we need to DO things to be saved is a works doctrine and incorrect.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Should a Christian do God's will and do it gladly, yes of course. If they do not are they still saved, of course they are. They may indeed have sin to repent from in not following God's will, but does it invalidate their salvation. I think not!

Flesh99 said: Submission to God's will is not a requirement for salvation, it should however be a result thereof."

thereselittleflower said:

I think you are very, very wrong . . .

Click to expand...

I think Flesh99 is very right

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

a few words on the post of course ya'll knew it was comming, while i can't negate the words of Jesus i think two things are nesscary frist context which is not provided second and most importantly you completely reject the idea of grace, if you think that you have done everything that God as every planned for you, that is quite pridefull which is a sin no doubt, what one must understand is there is a middle ground, why i try to reject the idea of slavation as something that a person a get when they accept Jesus, think about that, if you assume becuase some where along the line a person came to the relization of what Jesus did and was willing to put their life on it does not mean that is granted untill they die, your slavation is a day to day, hour to hour, mintue by mintue work that is never there nor ever gone, it is an abstract, if at any point you think you are going to heaven you have attempted to make God's judgement on your soul for your slef, that is why i don't pary that i was save, yet to be saved because i don't know what God's jugdement upon my soul is going to be, i pray for grace and hope that will save my soul, not that a date that i came to the relization, fell to my knees and prayed is going to be enough

AVBunyan said:

Flesh99 said: Submission to God's will is not a requirement for salvation, it should however be a result thereof."


I think Flesh99 is very right

Click to expand...

I think you are both contradicting the very words of Christ then in holding such a belief . .

If Christ says that only those who do the will of God will enter heaven (part of that will is believing) what do you think "doing the will of God" is? How can you say doing the will of God (and submitting to the will of God is part of doing the will of God) is not required?


Here is another passage which tells us part of God's will and the doing of which is decisive in one entering heaven:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Click to expand...

Yes, doing the will of God is esential to one's salvation . .


Peace in Him!

You are the one contradicting Scripture here. Of course a believer will do God's will, if they are sure it is God's will. If they miss it they are not going straight to hell. Our actions cannot affect our salvation or the grace imparted by Christ's work on the cross. This is very plain and clear in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
9 not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

From Darby just for you

How do you discredit this verse. It plainly states that works have nothing to do with our being saved. Anything else is blasphemy!

Thereselittleflower, Matthew 25, is a wonderful example in the gospel of how we need to put our faith into action. It is also very clear in the Epistle of James that salvation is more than a matter of belief. Even demons believes in Jesus. (James 2:19).

~Sandy

fless99, do you mean to say that one will be saved if they do not love God?

Also, is one saved if he has no faith in God?

Would you say that it is God's will that one have faith in Him in order to gain salvation?
If Yes, then would he then be doing the will of God? In having this saving faith?

Greetings flesh99,

Ephesians 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
9 not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

From Darby just for you

How do you discredit this verse. It plainly states that works have nothing to do with our being saved. Anything else is blasphemy!

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct, that there are NO works we can do to obtain salvation - HOWEVER:

Eph 2:9-10 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You can tell a tree by its fruit. In the Kingdom of God, any branch that does not produce fruit is cut off. By grace through faith we are saved and we can KNOW that we are saved IF we are walking in the WORKS that God has prepared us for.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

flesh99 said:

You are the one contradicting Scripture here. Of course a believer will do God's will, if they are sure it is God's will. If they miss it they are not going straight to hell. Our actions cannot affect our salvation or the grace imparted by Christ's work on the cross. This is very plain and clear in Ephesians.



Ephesians 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:

9 not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

From Darby just for you

How do you discredit this verse. It plainly states that works have nothing to do with our being saved. Anything else is blasphemy!

Click to expand...

First, read sandinmyears' and geocajuns posts above. .

Second, you have to harmonize Paul's discussion about "works" and James's discussion about "works' . . are they speaking of the same type of works?


NO!

Paul is talking about human works of the law (the old Jewish law by which men sought to be justified before God) done in one's own power without regard to Grace . . and these types of works can do nothing to help us with our salvation . .

But James is speaking of a different type of work . . works of Grace . . these are not done in merely human effort, but are infused with God's Grace and are empowered by Him . .

James says that faith without works is dead . .

You have to have these works of Grace evident in your life or you have a dead faith, and a dead faith will not count towards anything in the issues of salvation!

Yes, you MUST submit to God's will .. if you are repelled by the idea that your faith must be expressed in works of Grace (they are two sides of the same coin) then you are rejecting God's very word and denying Christ's words regarding these works (note what He says in Matthew 25 . .these are not works of the Old Law . .but of LOVE - AGAPE LOVE OF GOD!)

If you do not have this AGAPE LOVE OF GOD evident in your life (I am not speaking of it being evident perfectly, for none of us are perfect) then how can you say you have saving faith? If you reject the necessity of expressing your faith through Acts of Agape Love, acts of Charity, then you reject true saving faith in Christ . .

To say one must not submit to the will of God in order to be saved is a gross error . . Jesus says those who do not DO THE WILL of the father will not be saved . . The will of the Father is to DO justly, to LOVE mercy, and to walk Humbly with your God. . .

You cannot Do justly (action) or Love Mercy (action) or Walk humbly (action) with your God outside of God's divine and sanctifying Grace! You must respond to His divine and sanctifying Grace to be able to do this . . but you must submit to His will to do so . . and a living faith is a first step towards this . .

Faith is not mere mental assent to something .. it is true belief of the heart that accepts all that Christ taught and commanded, and then willingly submits to His will in it.

Jesus said if you do not deny yourself (action), take up your cross (action) and follow Him (action) you cannot be His disciple . .

This is submitting to His will, and we cannot follow Him if we do not, and we cannot enter heaven if we do not follow Him .. . .


Peace in Him!

Is this object of this thread to prove salvation by grace, or loss of salvation by sin?
I am not sure how works fit in here unless it is in the context of "bad works" or sin.

We are indeed made sinless by the Merits of Christ not by any work of our own, but we can in fact lose our salvation through serious sin. If that happens, we must repent and confess these sins to re-gain the friendship of God through the merits of Christ.

Our good works, as therese points out, do help us grow in justification (i.e sanctification).

sweetsoulsong said:

I was reading...and came across this.

An interesting point was made. So based on that, I'd like to ask a question or two:

Say one seeks God's objective will, and as a consequence of that, find's God's subjective will for them. They reject it. (Though I doubt this happens ...) Can they still be saved (later on in life)?

Click to expand...

no doubt justice will prevail.
If someone rejects the will of God, then they will get what is owed them for it.

Finally, I'd just like to say that the ramifications of free will seems to me and has proven through history to be quite staggering...

Click to expand...

specifically, what ramifications?

ya'll miss the point you assume that a human can achive perfection, you are wrong in that assumeption, i know that i must believe and lead a good life according to thoes believes but to be perfect is impossiable, show me where in the bible is says you must be perfect to enter heaven and i'll drop 4 other grace verus that more than likely precead or succed what you just tell me Christainty is about hope not death, thanks for playing

Matthew 25, the seperation of the goats and the sheep. Who was it that were cast away? The goats. The ones who did not feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit those in prison/sick, etc. That is part of the Will of God.

Faith without works is dead. If you have faith, works will follow. If you have no faith, there will be no works.

Yours in Christ,
Jen

ahh I see, so sweetsoulsong, do you think we would be better off without free will?