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History Reveals Dinosaurs

46AND2

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As I have read over and over again: "the fossils date the rocks and the rocks date the fossils" a kind of circular dating method...

Are you not suspicious of this claim?

The fossils are dated by the layers they are in, and the layers are dated by radiometric dating. Nothing circular about it.
 
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VirOptimus

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-snip-
However, the creationist says, the strata are the result of a flood, while the evolutionist says, these are the results of millions of years; etc. . .

Yeah, and the evidence and facts support evolutionary theory and an old earth.

YEC is a belief contrary to the facts. As its not testable and requires magic its not scientific.
 
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VirOptimus

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That depends on what you mean by science. Yes, I would say "science" as observable and testable phenomena are facts, yes. But, evolutionism is a worldview used to interpret those facts, the same as creationism.

No it isnt.

"Evolutionism" (thats not a meningful term btw) as you call it is just science.

Creationism is religion, this is even settled in a court of law.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I provided several examples. You claim they are "not"examples because "you don't like the idea".

Here's another example, read up. Fossil pollen is practically found anywhere there is sediment.
http://exhibits.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/midewin/palynology.html

You know better than that. If pollen lasted a long as they claim - lake beds would be pollen abundant - yet they are not.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0034666767901388

Soil must be podzolized rapidly first - which happens under forests, not in lakes. So ro be found in podzolized soil, the soil had to be brought from underneath a forest first - which means a catastrophic event.

http://www.earthonlinemedia.com/ebooks/tpe_3e/soil_systems/soil_development_processes.html

And if pollen is preserved in those lake beds over millions of years - you should have no problem finding me animal remains in the state of undergoing fossilization in those same lake beds along with the tiny little pollen. But you don't.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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No it isnt.

"Evolutionism" (thats not a meningful term btw) as you call it is just science.

Creationism is religion, this is even settled in a court of law.

Sure it is, by the same courts that allowed a false exhibit then has never overturned the decision based upon false evidence. Even criminals get new trials when it has been shown the prosecution used falsified evidence.

Besides, evolution is religion.

Asian mates with Asian and produces only Asian. African mates with African and produces only African. Only when Asian mates with African is variation seen in the species - Afro-Asian.

Husky mates with Husky and produces only Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces only Mastiff, Only when Husky mates with Mastiff is variation seen in the species - Chinook.

The Asian did not evolve into the Afro-Asian nor did the African. The Husky did not evolve into the Chinook, nor did the Mastiff.

Yet had you never seen a dog in life, but found fossils of the Husky and Mastiff and then later in the layer found fossils of the Chinook, you would be telling us all how the Husky or Mastiff evolved into the Chinook. And call it science. Even if you would be wrong about how the Chinook actually came about.

That you have simply incorrectly classified half the fossil record by ignoring how life actually propagates is clear.

These:
horned-dinosaurs.gif


Are no different than these:
dog-variations.jpg


Merely different infraspecific taxa to the species to which they belong - not separate species. But you ignore how variation does occur in the species and proclaim something not once observed.

Call it science if you wish - but it's still religion.
 
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Loudmouth

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The apparent assumption is that the fossils are older than the Gentry's rocks?

It's simple logic. When a metamorphic rock intrudes into a fossil bearing sediment, the fossil bearing sediment had to be there first in order for the metamorphic rock to intrude into it.

As I have read over and over again: "the fossils date the rocks and the rocks date the fossils" a kind of circular dating method, so it seems a little unclear which might be younger and which might be older if we are basing it on fossils.

Radiometric dating uses isotopes in the rocks to measure their age, not fossils.

I believe simply, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"; and "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"; and "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin"; and "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (i.e. a worldwide flood - judgment against sin). If we stick to that and trust God, everything else makes sense.

You can believe that the Moon is made of green cheese, if you want. The Moon will not suddenly turn into green cheese just because you believe it. Your beliefs have no bearing on what is real.
 
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Jfrsmth

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There is no malice intended in my posts to you. I don't call you names. I don't consider you stupid. You are ignorant in many areas concerning this topic, by your own admission. We are all ignorant about a lot of things. My questions are intended to help you think about these things in a different manner--not used as an insult.

I appreciate the comments. . .

46AND2, thanks for the civility in the majority of your past posts to me, it's refreshing, but I'm going to excuse myself now. I'm tired and have more important matters to give my time and energy to, so I'll be taking my leave of this forum. I've decided that I will not allow this forum to consume my time or energy any further as it has been. I'm relatively new here, and got sucked into the rhetoric and circuitous exchanges of people who may or may not be knowledgeable of the facts but who are nevertheless passionate about what they believe, and as such have spoken quite harshly at times; and have at times myself spoken in discourteous tones. Needless to say, it is a never-ending exercise that is quite draining and apparently futile; for every argument there is a counter-argument, and another, and another. There never seems to be any agreement or conclusions drawn.

I do however have one simple observation from my experience here: That some people believe one thing based on rocks basically, others believe another thing based on what God says. For those who say we came from rocks, I'll leave this verse: Jeremiah 2:27a "Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth". For those reading this post who believe God created us as it is written in Genesis 1-2, continue to trust God to work these things out, in the fullness of time; and never lose sight of Jesus Christ who has redeemed us: Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

46AND2, you have my respect. Not for your arguments per se, but for your relative civility while making them to someone ignorant of geology.

Jfrsmth, signing off from Christian Forums.
 
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Astrophile

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For one thing, I think it is pretty cool that you read the article and posted an excerpt from it here. . . Nevertheless, the Creationist view is based on the Bible, and the biblical record of Genesis 1-2 is foundational for creationist science. Not too long ago there was a thread discussing the very issue of apparent age, which you brought up. However, we are entering theology when we begin to discuss apparent age and the creation of a mature creation as interpreted from Genesis 1-2. For a YEC, this is not a problem. For evolutionary-minded individuals, I can see how they might have a problem with it.

Dr. Snelling, with whom I've corresponded with a few times, is not desperate at all. He is simply relating his observations to what we see in the Bible. He is standing on the truth of God's Word as irrefutable, accurate, and inerrant: he is trusting the Word of God in light of what we observe and making sense of it.

I should think that it is very much the same as an evolutionist views the data and makes sense of it based on his/her worldview of deep time and purely natural processes. YECs put the Word of God first before the word of errant, fallible, corrupted, and sinful man. If it is in-line with the Bible, it is embraced. If it is not, the obvious conclusion is that there is an error on our part, not God's. I do not expect everyone to accept that explanation, but that is the case.

Let me try to explain my understanding of Omphalism. The hypothesis that God created the universe with the appearance of age has the advantages that it is able to explain everything that we observe, that it works according to laws, and that one can make predictions from it; one can predict that every observation will confirm the appearance of age.

The hypothesis has the disadvantage that it is not scientific; it cannot possibly be tested, and there is no conceivable observation or experiment that could disprove it. My only response to such a universe would be awe at God's skill and artistry in producing such a perfect simulacrum of an ancient universe.

Omphalists often say that God created Adam and Eve as a mature man and woman, because they would not have been able to survive if they had been created as children. This reminds me of a very silly argument about Shakespeare's play The Tempest. If Prospero and Miranda had been living alone on the island since Miranda was a baby, how did she get new clothes as she grew out of her old ones? The answer was that if Prospero was a great magician who could raise a storm capable of sinking a ship, he could presumably use his magic to produce new clothes for his daughter when she needed them! (I said that it was a very silly argument.)

Presumably, if God could make a whole universe in six days, he could have created Adam and Eve as new-born babies and then have miraculously sustained them until they were old enough to fend for themselves. (This is the sort of thing that literary criticism and theology bring us to.)

To get back to the subject under discussion, after Snelling has shown that the isotopic ratios in meteorites indicate ages of 4.55-4.57 billion years, he asks whether there is physical evidence of radioactive decay that would produce the observed quantities of daughter isotopes. He concludes that there is not.
we have to conclude there is not good clear physical evidence that a lot of nuclear decay has occurred in meteorites, certainly not ~4.5 Ga worth, and thus not in their parent asteroids either.
From this he argues that God put the daughter isotopes in the meteorites at the Creation.

Dr. Snelling here appears to think that he is cleverer than God, that he is clever enough to catch God out. God is clever enough to provide meteorites with the right isotopic ratios to create the appearance of an age of 4.55-4.57 billion years, but He was not clever enough to provide the evidence of radioactive decay that would make the illusion perfect, the evidence that should be present if the meteorites were really that old. In other words, God has slipped up, and Dr. Snelling has caught Him out in a mistake. Do you, as a Christian, think that this is likely?
 
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46AND2

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I appreciate the comments. . .

46AND2, thanks for the civility in the majority of your past posts to me, it's refreshing, but I'm going to excuse myself now. I'm tired and have more important matters to give my time and energy to, so I'll be taking my leave of this forum. I've decided that I will not allow this forum to consume my time or energy any further as it has been. I'm relatively new here, and got sucked into the rhetoric and circuitous exchanges of people who may or may not be knowledgeable of the facts but who are nevertheless passionate about what they believe, and as such have spoken quite harshly at times; and have at times myself spoken in discourteous tones. Needless to say, it is a never-ending exercise that is quite draining and apparently futile; for every argument there is a counter-argument, and another, and another. There never seems to be any agreement or conclusions drawn.

I do however have one simple observation from my experience here: That some people believe one thing based on rocks basically, others believe another thing based on what God says. For those who say we came from rocks, I'll leave this verse: Jeremiah 2:27a "Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth". For those reading this post who believe God created us as it is written in Genesis 1-2, continue to trust God to work these things out, in the fullness of time; and never lose sight of Jesus Christ who has redeemed us: Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us."

46AND2, you have my respect. Not for your arguments per se, but for your relative civility while making them to someone ignorant of geology.

Jfrsmth, signing off from Christian Forums.


I can certainly understand the feeling of being drawn in here in such a way that it consumes more time than you're willing to allot. I've taken a few breaks from the site, myself.

Take care. Cheers.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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If you're going to make such assertions as "throwing the scientific method out the window" and "making stuff up", I'd sure appreciate seeing the actual data, discussion, and conclusions from RATE themselves. Otherwise, you are simply voicing your opinion on the matter as many seem to do in this forum.

Ummm, My quote was DIRECTLY from the RATE paper. Perhaps you could do a little bit of research before posting your high dudgeon and looking like a fool.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I'd have to see examples of what you are claiming before I could comment on your arguments here. You are making generalized comments that are hard to get a-hold of.
I am literally stating that I have not found a single peer-reviewed paper that supports creationism that doesn't have one or more of these huge flaws:
1. Extremely old
2. Findings later disproven
3. Publication skipped vital steps
4. Interpretation of evidence showed extreme bias and was based off of subjective connections rather than the objective data itself.

And most of what I can find that supports creationism isn't peer-reviewed at all.

The statement is general, because it literally encompasses every single source I have ever seen that claims to support creationism.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Let me try to explain my understanding of Omphalism. The hypothesis that God created the universe with the appearance of age has the advantages that it is able to explain everything that we observe, that it works according to laws, and that one can make predictions from it; one can predict that every observation will confirm the appearance of age.

The hypothesis has the disadvantage that it is not scientific; it cannot possibly be tested, and there is no conceivable observation or experiment that could disprove it. My only response to such a universe would be awe at God's skill and artistry in producing such a perfect simulacrum of an ancient universe.

Omphalists often say that God created Adam and Eve as a mature man and woman, because they would not have been able to survive if they had been created as children. This reminds me of a very silly argument about Shakespeare's play The Tempest. If Prospero and Miranda had been living alone on the island since Miranda was a baby, how did she get new clothes as she grew out of her old ones? The answer was that if Prospero was a great magician who could raise a storm capable of sinking a ship, he could presumably use his magic to produce new clothes for his daughter when she needed them! (I said that it was a very silly argument.)

Presumably, if God could make a whole universe in six days, he could have created Adam and Eve as new-born babies and then have miraculously sustained them until they were old enough to fend for themselves. (This is the sort of thing that literary criticism and theology bring us to.)

To get back to the subject under discussion, after Snelling has shown that the isotopic ratios in meteorites indicate ages of 4.55-4.57 billion years, he asks whether there is physical evidence of radioactive decay that would produce the observed quantities of daughter isotopes. He concludes that there is not.

From this he argues that God put the daughter isotopes in the meteorites at the Creation.

Dr. Snelling here appears to think that he is cleverer than God, that he is clever enough to catch God out. God is clever enough to provide meteorites with the right isotopic ratios to create the appearance of an age of 4.55-4.57 billion years, but He was not clever enough to provide the evidence of radioactive decay that would make the illusion perfect, the evidence that should be present if the meteorites were really that old. In other words, God has slipped up, and Dr. Snelling has caught Him out in a mistake. Do you, as a Christian, think that this is likely?

The reason that the earth has the appearance of age is because those who claim to follow Relativity really do not. If the universe is increasing in speed at an accelerating rate - then by the postulates of relativity clocks are slowing and rulers are shrinking as we speak. meaning that to get a true age of the universe you can not use the rate at which clocks tick today, because they ticked faster in the past.

Now some like to claim that this is not so - yet the twin notices no change in his clocks - yet we all understand he ages slower because of his acceleration - that he notices nothing is irrelevant. We - all of us - understand he ages slower. The twin would not get a true calculation of his age if he used the clocks while he was accelerating without adjusting them for the time he spent at a lesser velocity. He would be required to use transforms to calculate his age while under acceleration.

The only reason the earth appears old is because people refuse to adjust their clocks for time dilation, while at the same time claiming to understand Relativity in an accelerating universe. Transforms must be used - because acceleration was less in the past and therefore clocks ticked faster - i.e., decay rates were faster. They must be done exponentially since it is claimed the universe began acceleration faster than c to begin with.

It's a simple scientific fact that clocks slow under acceleration - so why is it every person that claims to follow Relativity refuses to adjust their clocks in a universe undergoing increasing acceleration as they calculate backwards in time? Again - the claim of this frame is hollow and holds no merit. The twin notices no change - but again - each of us understands the twin ages slower - regardless if he measures this change or not. The same holds for us as it holds for the twin - regardless if we measure this change or not - it is occurring.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ummm, My quote was DIRECTLY from the RATE paper. Perhaps you could do a little bit of research before posting your high dudgeon and looking like a fool.

Do we need to discuss Darwin's Finches interbreeding and producing fertile offspring right in front of our eyes and how every evolutionists will overlook this to keep their Fairie Dust belief alive since they are the claimed prime example of speciation? Half of you people wouldn't know what a species was if it was producing offspring right in front of your noses, as evidenced by them doing just that and claiming separate species.

And since the DNA tests showed they were interbreeding since arriving on the islands, speciation never occurred from reproductive isolation to begin with. But correct your mistakes? No, they would rather just keep lying about them because they know their devoted followers will say nothing to contradict the teachings of their high priests.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I am not saying that there is no bias on the side of evolution; however, the problem is that I have yet to find a single creationist publication that WASN'T. A great way of telling that some journals that support evolution aren't biased in favor of it, is that the experiments described within them, or the people writing the journal, were intending to disprove it. Yet, their findings ended up supporting it all the more. You don't see that in creationism publications of any kind. Any that are peer reviewed don't come up with evidence that supports it, and non-reviewed sources are not trustworthy, as people can make up whatever they want in those papers.

That you believe that is the problem. People do not write papers on things that disprove their beliefs. Out of the 100 experiments that did not match the results they seek, you will only see the one experiment out of those 100 that did.

Out of over 100 papers Einstein had one peer reviewed paper - and it was rejected. After which he refused to submit his papers to peer review. Yet you have no problems accepting non-peer reviewed papers when it comes to what you want to accept and what you do not want to accept.

http://jrs.sagepub.com/content/99/4/178.short?rss=1&ssource=mfr

http://www.economist.com/news/leade...it-needs-change-itself-how-science-goes-wrong

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...roblems-with-peer-reviewed-publications.shtml

That you have blind faith in the peer review just shows the problem that pervades all of science. Blind faith.
 
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Astrophile

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The reason that the earth has the appearance of age is because those who claim to follow Relativity really do not. If the universe is increasing in speed at an accelerating rate - then by the postulates of relativity clocks are slowing and rulers are shrinking as we speak. meaning that to get a true age of the universe you can not use the rate at which clocks tick today, because they ticked faster in the past.

Now some like to claim that this is not so - yet the twin notices no change in his clocks - yet we all understand he ages slower because of his acceleration - that he notices nothing is irrelevant. We - all of us - understand he ages slower. The twin would not get a true calculation of his age if he used the clocks while he was accelerating without adjusting them for the time he spent at a lesser velocity. He would be required to use transforms to calculate his age while under acceleration.

The only reason the earth appears old is because people refuse to adjust their clocks for time dilation, while at the same time claiming to understand Relativity in an accelerating universe. Transforms must be used - because acceleration was less in the past and therefore clocks ticked faster - i.e., decay rates were faster. They must be done exponentially since it is claimed the universe began acceleration faster than c to begin with.

It's a simple scientific fact that clocks slow under acceleration - so why is it every person that claims to follow Relativity refuses to adjust their clocks in a universe undergoing increasing acceleration as they calculate backwards in time? Again - the claim of this frame is hollow and holds no merit. The twin notices no change - but again - each of us understands the twin ages slower - regardless if he measures this change or not. The same holds for us as it holds for the twin - regardless if we measure this change or not - it is occurring.

This has nothing to do with my post.
 
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