History of invoking saints and angels

[Cis.jd]

I'm not making a thread for debating purposes but I would like to see any form of historical source in where this practice began.

- I'm not interested in scriptural sources (i've seen the scriptural sources posted) but I do want to see when (or as far back as possible) exactly did the Hail Mary's, invoking of angels and saints began.

 

[Basil the Great]

Excellent thread. I believe that the practice of invoking saints generally is more ancient than the level of Marian devotion as it is seen from about the 300's/400's forward. I have read on some Catholic websites that inscriptions on some tombs in the catacombs in Rome seem to lend credence to prayers to saints.

 

[HTacianas]

I'm not making a thread for debating purposes but I would like to see any form of historical source in where this practice began.

- I'm not interested in scriptural sources (i've seen the scriptural sources posted) but I do want to see when (or as far back as possible) exactly did the Hail Mary's, invoking of angels and saints began.

It began very early on. By early I mean at the time of the first martyrs, that being first century AD.

As Christians were martyred, their bodies, or often only what was left of them, were preserved and considered holy. They were believed to have passed from life directly into the presence of God, as recorded in the Revelation:

Rev 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The historical evidence of the veneration of the saints is found in the graffiti near their graves. It is often found "<name> pray for us".

Prayers to saints is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity.

 

[Cis.jd]

It began very early on. By early I mean at the time of the first martyrs, that being first century AD.

As Christians were martyred, their bodies, or often only what was left of them, were preserved and considered holy. They were believed to have passed from life directly into the presence of God, as recorded in the Revelation:

Rev 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

The historical evidence of the veneration of the saints is found in the graffiti near their graves. It is often found "<name> pray for us".

Prayers to saints is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity.

I am aware of the verse, and I am not arguing against it but I would like actual historical reference/evidence on it. As i feel this maybe required for future debates on this subject. I would like to know more about the graffiti near the grave of saints and if they do date that far back prior to Rome.

 

[HTacianas]

I am aware of the verse, and I am not arguing against it but I would like actual historical reference/evidence on it. As i feel this maybe required for future debates on this subject. I would like to know more about the graffiti near the grave of saints and if they do date that far back prior to Rome.

Christian graffiti is a study in itself. Try googling it and begin there. There's a lot of information on it.

 

[Athanasius377]

Excellent thread. I believe that the practice of invoking saints generally is more ancient than the level of Marian devotion as it is seen from about the 300's/400's forward. I have read on some Catholic websites that inscriptions on some tombs in the catacombs in Rome seem to lend credence to prayers to saints.

Excellent point. As best as I can tell, and I am by no means a professional historian, the practice seems to appear in the late 3rd century writings. I suspect that the practice is a confluence of the cult of martyrs and the practice of a refrigerium or a meal of rememberance of martyr that would occur every year following their martyrdom or their birthday depending on the custom. It's a short jump to remembering the martyrs and asking for their prayers. By the third century the idea of intercessory prayer as part of the doctrine of the communion of saints is argued for by Origen. He argued that the Church in heaven assists the church on earth by intercessory prayer. By the Late fourth century the practice is at least widespread if not universal.

There is a discussion on this development in JND Kelley's work "Early Christian Doctrines" if you want a scholarly treatment of the subject.

 

[Resha Caner]

This is a tricky topic. Just because people were asking for intercession from dead saints doesn't mean it is proper practice. Christians do all kinds of things. Just because a Christian does something does not sanction that act. So, are you looking for historical evidence of individuals who called themselves Christian asking for intercession, or are you looking for historical evidence of the church sanctioning intercession?

There are indications some Jews may have practiced intercession, so if you're looking for individual cases, it is very early. As indicated, there is graffiti in some Roman catacombs from the 3rd century - maybe earlier: Epitaphs of the Catacombs

If you're looking for church sanction, the liturgy is probably the best place to look. Again, that can be tricky. People will quote references from St. Basil of Caesarea from the 4th century, but his liturgy is more a mention of departed saints than an appeal to them - something few churches would have a problem with. Still, it appears liturgies (such as St. James) were making intercessory appeals by the late 4th to early 5th century. Again, though, it's hard to know how much these things have been tweaked over the years. For example, I'm not sure how close the link I provided to the St. James liturgy is to the original St. James liturgy.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If the Didache "The teachings of the twelve Apostles" was written in the 1st century as some scholars have claimed, there is a hint of this :

IV-2: "2. And thou shalt seek daily the presence of the saints, that thou mayest find rest in their words. "

Though speaking of the actual flesh form of their presence, this may have been used as the indoctrination of invocation of saints and angels.

 

[Cis.jd]

So, are you looking for historical evidence of individuals who called themselves Christian asking for intercession, or are you looking for historical evidence of the church sanctioning intercession?

Good question. I would say the first.. or better put, the early church/first christians. I just would like to see the origin of the saint intercession, the hail Mary's, and all of that.

 

[Resha Caner]

Good question. I would say the first.. or better put, the early church/first christians. I just would like to see the origin of the saint intercession, the hail Mary's, and all of that.

Then, as I mentioned, resources (such as the link I provided) on the catacombs are a good place to start, as well as resources about the Talmud. The Talmud mentions intercessory prayer in Taanit 16a, and so it becomes an exercise in trying to date where that came from. I think you'll find that although the history of the Jews stretches back into the OT, you won't find extant sources for Talmudic content, etc. that are really any earlier than early Christianity. However, given the obvious animosity between Jews and Christians at that time, shared practices between the two is a convincing case that such practices likely existed B.C.

I love history, so I'm curious what leads you to ask these questions.

 

[Cis.jd]

Then, as I mentioned, resources (such as the link I provided) on the catacombs are a good place to start, as well as resources about the Talmud. The Talmud mentions intercessory prayer in Taanit 16a, and so it becomes an exercise in trying to date where that came from. I think you'll find that although the history of the Jews stretches back into the OT, you won't find extant sources for Talmudic content, etc. that are really any earlier than early Christianity. However, given the obvious animosity between Jews and Christians at that time, shared practices between the two is a convincing case that such practices likely existed B.C.

I love history, so I'm curious what leads you to ask these questions.

Mainly because there is always scripture being used on this topic. The Catholic will provide scriptural sources in support while the Protestant (depending on the denomination) will provide scripture against it. So i'm wondering about the utilization of history in these type of debates.

 

[Resha Caner]

Mainly because there is always scripture being used on this topic. The Catholic will provide scriptural sources in support while the Protestant (depending on the denomination) will provide scripture against it. So i'm wondering about the utilization of history in these type of debates.

I see. I wouldn't expect that to work for you, but I bet you'll learn something along the way, so keep at it. Take me as an example, I'm acknowledging historical evidence for very early uses of intercessory prayer, yet I don't accept it as proper theology. Go figure.