Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

Meowzltov · Feb 2, 2016

BobRyan said:
Your position opposed to both the Bible and your own Pope John Paul II - is a bit 'extreme' for a Catholic don't you think??

We've gone over and over and over how Catholics use the word Sabbath, how at times we use it literally to refer to the literal sabbath of Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and how other times we use it FIGURATIVELY to refer to the Lord's Day, which carries the solemnity of the Sabbath.

And remember btw that my personal practice is that I rest on the Shabbat as well as keep the solemnity of the Lord's Day, so I should have no problem with either the pope or with you.

bugkiller · Feb 2, 2016

Open Heart said:
I never said it was a sin to eat meat.

I didn't say you did.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Feb 3, 2016

Open Heart said:
We've gone over and over and over how Catholics use the word Sabbath, how at times we use it literally to refer to the literal sabbath of Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and how other times we use it FIGURATIVELY to refer to the Lord's Day, which carries the solemnity of the Sabbath.

Hmm - how do you see it being used here - literally??

Which brings us back to this -

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

And remember btw that my personal practice is that I rest on the Shabbat as well as keep the solemnity of the Lord's Day, so I should have no problem with either the pope or with you.

I agree that you have the option of finding common ground on this point.

I repeatedly state that I am in agreement with 6 of the 7 points that these pro-sunday sources make on this subject.

you have the option of agreeing with them on all 7.

While most pro-sunday people on this board appear to prefer to oppose all 7 of their points.

BobRyan · Feb 3, 2016

And of course the "7 points" are --

BobRyan said:
But it is interesting that both they and the other sources listed in my signature line agree to some basics that I too would agree with.
Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

FredVB · Feb 4, 2016

Yet Jesus ate meat and even provided a non veggie meal to thousands. Did Jesus sin and make provision for other to sin?

It really isn't absolutely known that Jesus definitely ate meat, that can't be shown conclusively. The case of taking a honeycomb and a piece of fish (which I don't know anyone is taking together now) to show he was physically alive after the resurrection is not shown in agreement in all early manuscripts. But the perfect design from the Creator in the beginning included fruit and vegetables from trees and green plants for us, while there was no death, meat of animals was not included in that, and it did not change for meat from animals to be included with the fall with sin of humanity against God. With Jesus having been behind the creation previous to the incarnation as Jesus, why indeed would he in his perfection go contrary to his perfect design for us? It is conspicuous that meat is not mentioned at all in his last supper, and bread and wine are symbols he chose to use. It was not an essential point to salvation, which had priority though. Multiplication of food did not involve killing.

Meowzltov · Feb 5, 2016

BobRyan said:
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

Commentaries make mistakes. The Lord's day was always Sunday.

BobRyan · Feb 5, 2016

Open Heart said:
Commentaries make mistakes. The Lord's day was always Sunday.

Not in the actual Bible.

Meowzltov · Feb 5, 2016

BobRyan said:
Not in the actual Bible.

The earliest reference to what day of the week "the Lord's Day" was, it was Sunday. We've been down this road before. All you have is a bunch of quotes that are NOT about the Lord's Day, and a stubborn desire to say that a letter unanimously aceepted as legitimately by Ignatius is a fraud.

BobRyan · Feb 5, 2016

Open Heart said:
Commentaries make mistakes. The Lord's day was always Sunday.

Not in the actual Bible.

Open Heart said:
The earliest reference to what day of the week "the Lord's Day" was, it was Sunday. We've been down this road before. All you have is a bunch of quotes that are NOT about the Lord's Day, and a stubborn desire to say that a letter unanimously aceepted as legitimately by Ignatius is a fraud.

in the actual Bible - Isaiah 58:13 Calls Sabbath the "holy Day of the LORD" each week.
In the Bible Christ said "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

And of course - even your own Catholic Commentary points out that the Lord's Day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week until tradition came along later and tried to change it.

1. The first day is the Lord's Day -- not in the Bible
2. The Son of man is Lord of the - first day which is the Lord's Day - not in the Bible.
3. Remember the first day of the week to keep it holy - not in the Bible
4. The first day is the Holy Day of the Lord - not in the Bible.
5. From first-day to first-day shall all mankind come before Me to worship -- not in the Bible.
6. Every first day - we had Gospel sermons reaching both Jews and Gentiles -- not in the Bible.
7. There remains therefore a first day rest - a Lord's Day first day - rest for the people of God.

YET ALL of THEM - have the equivalent of that statement for Sabbath.

Meowzltov · Feb 5, 2016

BobRyan said:
Not in the actual Bible.

Like I said, the only thing you have to go on is a bunch of verses that don't actually talk about the "Lord's Day," and a stubborn refusal to accept a letter by Ignatius that scholars agree is authentic.

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2016

Open Heart said:
Like I said, the only thing you have to go on is a bunch of verses that don't actually talk about the "Lord's Day," a

We had all these example FOR the 7th day Sabbath AND not one word of support for "week day 1'.

And of course - even your own Catholic Commentary points out that the Lord's Day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week until tradition came along later and tried to change it.

1. The first day is the Lord's Day -- not in the Bible
2. The Son of man is Lord of the - first day which is the Lord's Day - not in the Bible.
3. Remember the first day of the week to keep it holy - not in the Bible
4. The first day is the Holy Day of the Lord - not in the Bible.
5. From first-day to first-day shall all mankind come before Me to worship -- not in the Bible.
6. Every first day - we had Gospel sermons reaching both Jews and Gentiles -- not in the Bible.
7. There remains therefore a first day rest - a Lord's Day first day - rest for the people of God.

And then we have this in addition
in the actual Bible - Isaiah 58:13 Calls Sabbath the "holy Day of the LORD" each week.
In the Bible Christ said "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

And NOT A WORD of that sort for "week day 1" in the "actual Bible".

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2016

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

and your response?

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

BobRyan · Feb 19, 2016

Now "of course" the inconvenient "details" in the last two post are supposed to "vanish" once they have been posted. But in fact they are the answer to a dozen questions that all "ask the same question over again".

for example.

"Where do you live?" --- in my house.
"Yes but where do you sleep?" --- in my house.
"yes but where do you eat breakfast" -- in my house.
"yes but where do you keep your clothes" -- in my house.
"yes but where do your children live?" -- in my house.
"yes but where do you keep your shoes" -- in my house.
"and your food?" -- in my house
"your belt?" -- in my house

The idea of complaining that "in my house" keeps showing up -- when all the same sorts of questions are being brought up - is not "compelling".

Meowzltov · Feb 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

and your response?

A Catholic commentary has no authority in Catholicism.

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2016

Open Heart said:
All the other of the ten are repeated in the NT .

TRue - except that one about not taking God's name in vain - not quoted at all in the NT for anyone.

"There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4.
"Worship HIM who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" Rev 14:7
"EVERY Sabbath" they were in the synagogue preaching the Gospel to BOTH gentiles and Jews - Acts 18:1-5.
"EVERY Sabbath" scripture is read in the synagogues and this solves the problem of Acts 15 for gentiles.
"The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- turns out --- that includes gentiles.

EVEN Dies Domini insists that the Sabbath commandment as with ALL the TEN commandments are for ALL MANKIND and "not just jews"

Your position opposed to both the Bible and your own Pope John Paul II - is a bit 'extreme' for a Catholic don't you think??

Dies Domini pt 11
"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

Open Heart said:
We've gone over and over and over how Catholics use the word Sabbath, how at times we use it literally to refer to the literal sabbath of Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and how other times we use it FIGURATIVELY to refer to the Lord's Day, which carries the solemnity of the Sabbath.

Well here is a case where it is 'the 7th day of the week' - and is NOT limited to "just Jews" -- according to your own Pope.

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2016

Open Heart said:
A Catholic commentary has no authority in Catholicism.

You are perfectly free to ignore your own commentaries on your own catechism.

But you can't "blame them on me".

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2016

Open Heart said:
Like I said, the only thing you have to go on is a bunch of verses that don't actually talk about the "Lord's Day,"

And like I said - you don't even have any of this from the Bible - in support of week-day 1.

in the actual Bible - Isaiah 58:13 Calls Sabbath the "holy Day of the LORD" each week.
In the Bible Christ said "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

And of course - even your own Catholic Commentary points out that the Lord's Day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week until tradition came along later and tried to change it.

1. The first day is the Lord's Day -- not in the Bible
2. The Son of man is Lord of the - first day which is the Lord's Day - not in the Bible.
3. Remember the first day of the week to keep it holy - not in the Bible
4. The first day is the Holy Day of the Lord - not in the Bible.
5. From first-day to first-day shall all mankind come before Me to worship -- not in the Bible.
6. Every first day - we had Gospel sermons reaching both Jews and Gentiles -- not in the Bible.
7. There remains therefore a first day rest - a Lord's Day first day - rest for the people of God.

YET ALL of THEM - have the equivalent of that statement for Sabbath

Meowzltov · Feb 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
EVEN Dies Domini insists that the Sabbath commandment as with ALL the TEN commandments are for ALL MANKIND and "not just jews"

You know that the Catholic position is NOT that we keep the Sabbath, but rather the Lord's day. You quote dies domini in vain.

Meowzltov · Feb 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
You are perfectly free to ignore your own commentaries on your own catechism.

But you can't "blame them on me".

I pick and choose among Catholic commentaries all the time. I pick and choose among Papal opinions too: agree with climate change opinion, disagree with capital punishment opinion. The only thing I'm oligated to believe are dogmas and the only things I'm obligated to obey are the teachings of the magisterium.

Meowzltov · Feb 24, 2016

BobRyan said:
And like I said - you don't even have any of this from the Bible - in support of week-day 1.

in the actual Bible - Isaiah 58:13 Calls Sabbath the "holy Day of the LORD" each week.
In the Bible Christ said "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

And of course - even your own Catholic Commentary points out that the Lord's Day was Saturday - the 7th day of the week until tradition came along later and tried to change it.

1. The first day is the Lord's Day -- not in the Bible
2. The Son of man is Lord of the - first day which is the Lord's Day - not in the Bible.
3. Remember the first day of the week to keep it holy - not in the Bible
4. The first day is the Holy Day of the Lord - not in the Bible.
5. From first-day to first-day shall all mankind come before Me to worship -- not in the Bible.
6. Every first day - we had Gospel sermons reaching both Jews and Gentiles -- not in the Bible.
7. There remains therefore a first day rest - a Lord's Day first day - rest for the people of God.

YET ALL of THEM - have the equivalent of that statement for Sabbath

Lets me give you a taste of your own medicine, since you repeatedly do this.
1. The seventh day is the Lord's Day -- not in the bible.
2. Remember the Lord's Day and keep it holy -- not in the Bible.
3. From the Lord's Day to the Lord' Day shall all mankind come before me to worship -- not in the Bible
4. I am Lord of the Lord's Day -- not in the Bible.
5. And God blessed the Lord's Day and made it holy -- not in the Bible.
etc....
Are you getting the picture? This is what you do. It's a silly tactic.

Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

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