Historical Moses and Transfiguration

[cloudyday2]

As everybody knows, some of the gospels describe how Peter, James, and John went to a mountaintop where they saw Jesus meet Moses and Elijah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Many Christians believe that portions of the Bible are simply religious fiction. The Exodus story is commonly dismissed as fiction, because the God it portrays is not palatable to modern tastes. On the other hand, most Christians consider the Transfiguration story to be historical. The Transfiguration implies that Moses was historical.

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

(2) If you don't think the Exodus story was literally true, then what did actually happen? Who was Moses? When did Moses live? What did Moses actually do? ...

 

[Oncedeceived]

As everybody knows, some of the gospels describe how Peter, James, and John went to a mountaintop where they saw Jesus meet Moses and Elijah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Many Christians believe that portions of the Bible are simply religious fiction. The Exodus story is commonly dismissed as fiction, because the God it portrays is not palatable to modern tastes. On the other hand, most Christians consider the Transfiguration story to be historical. The Transfiguration implies that Moses was historical.

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

God is not one dimension.

(2) If you don't think the Exodus story was literally true, then what did actually happen? Who was Moses? When did Moses live? What did Moses actually do? ...

Moses was who the Bible says he was, I don't know the dates in which he lived. He did what the Bible says he did.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here are a couple of other possibilities for people to consider:

(1) Maybe Moses and Elijah are fictional characters, but the Transfiguration was a historical event. God spoke through visual symbols to convey an idea. The fictional Moses represented the Law and God the Father. The fictional Elijah represented the Prophecies and God the Holy Spirit. And of course Jesus represented mercy and God the Son. So Peter, James, and John saw the Trinity, but God communicated this through the visual symbols of fictional characters from Judaism.

(2) Maybe the Transfiguration was not a historical event.

 

[juvenissun]

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

From humanistic point of view, a human life is a human life. Every individual life is equal and is significant. From this point of view, the killings order by God in Exodus and Joshua are wrong.

However, see the same thing from the religious point of view, everything recorded in those Books are justified and are righteous. God loves HIS people. Others are NOT His people and are hostile to His people. It is as simple as that.

This view and value lasted all the way till today. Am I better than you as a human? Definitely not. But why would God loves me and does not love you (yet)? Because I am His, but you are not (yet). Even from humanistic point view, this is a righteous decision. Why should I love one who does not even recognize my existence?

Christian God loves everyone as long as who recognizes Him as God. This love is the most generous one among ALL religions.

 

[juvenissun]

Here are a couple of other possibilities for people to consider:

(1) Maybe Moses and Elijah are fictional characters, but the Transfiguration was a historical event. God spoke through visual symbols to convey an idea. The fictional Moses represented the Law and God the Father. The fictional Elijah represented the Prophecies and God the Holy Spirit. And of course Jesus represented mercy and God the Son. So Peter, James, and John saw the Trinity, but God communicated this through the visual symbols of fictional characters from Judaism.

(2) Maybe the Transfiguration was not a historical event.

Do you like to see miracles given by God? Not just one, but as many as possible. So you could have strong faith.

May be you will say yes. But I do not know. Peter, James and John saw this miracle of transfiguration (this is the simple answer to your question). Their faith must be strong. They also saw other miracles performed by Jesus. How strong are their faith at the end when Jesus died? Not very strong.

Eventually, they have gained enough faith and started to preach for the rest of their life. But from your point of view, what are the tragic end have they had at the moment of their death?

There is no free lunch. The more gift and favor we received from God, the heavier burden we will take. I just heard that a missionary was killed in West Africa by terrorists yesterday.

-- this is not a discussion off the topic, this is the meaning and an extension to the event in your OP --

 

[juvenissun]

As everybody knows, some of the gospels describe how Peter, James, and John went to a mountaintop where they saw Jesus meet Moses and Elijah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Many Christians believe that portions of the Bible are simply religious fiction. The Exodus story is commonly dismissed as fiction, because the God it portrays is not palatable to modern tastes. On the other hand, most Christians consider the Transfiguration story to be historical. The Transfiguration implies that Moses was historical.

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

(2) If you don't think the Exodus story was literally true, then what did actually happen? Who was Moses? When did Moses live? What did Moses actually do? ...

Theologically, this transfiguration miracle is also very significant (not just a bluffing fiction). It revealed a small scene which is only seen in the Heaven. Christianity is the only religion which disclosed many clues to people on what are the precise situations in the Heaven.

 

[Wgw]

As everybody knows, some of the gospels describe how Peter, James, and John went to a mountaintop where they saw Jesus meet Moses and Elijah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Many Christians believe that portions of the Bible are simply religious fiction. The Exodus story is commonly dismissed as fiction, because the God it portrays is not palatable to modern tastes. On the other hand, most Christians consider the Transfiguration story to be historical. The Transfiguration implies that Moses was historical.

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

(2) If you don't think the Exodus story was literally true, then what did actually happen? Who was Moses? When did Moses live? What did Moses actually do? ...

I should note that what you are outlining here can be regarded as more of an objection to Moses per se than the Transfiguration. Marcion taught that the God of the old testament was an evil demiurge, as did some Gnostics, but nearly all Christians today accept the Old Testament account, either on historical or quasi-historical, allegorical terms.

 

[danny ski]

Theologically, this transfiguration miracle is also very significant (not just a bluffing fiction). It revealed a small scene which is only seen in the Heaven. Christianity is the only religion which disclosed many clues to people on what are the precise situations in the Heaven.

The miracle is yet to come. And that miracle would be an explanation for breaking the prohibition against summoning the dead.

 

[cloudyday2]

From humanistic point of view, a human life is a human life. Every individual life is equal and is significant. From this point of view, the killings order by God in Exodus and Joshua are wrong.

However, see the same thing from the religious point of view, everything recorded in those Books are justified and are righteous. God loves HIS people. Others are NOT His people and are hostile to His people. It is as simple as that.

Here is a Bible quote where Jesus seems to say the opposite. God blesses universally, so we should bless universally. If Exodus was a historical event, then there is a contradiction.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5:43-45

 

[cloudyday2]

Christianity is the only religion which disclosed many clues to people on what are the precise situations in the Heaven.

Almost every religion makes claims about the afterlife, but I suppose you are saying that Christianity is the only religion that makes true claims about the afterlife (because Christianity is the only true religion - right?)

 

[cloudyday2]

I should note that what you are outlining here can be regarded as more of an objection to Moses per se than the Transfiguration. Marcion taught that the God of the old testament was an evil demiurge, as did some Gnostics, but nearly all Christians today accept the Old Testament account, either on historical or quasi-historical, allegorical terms.

Do you see understand the point I am making? Imagine the transfigured Jesus was talking with the Tortoise and the Hare from Aesop's fables ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare ). Some Christians consider the Exodus story to be a fable, but Jesus talked to Moses in the Transfiguration. Atheists dismiss the Transfiguration as a fable, so they have no problem. Biblical literalists think the Exodus was historical, so they have no problem. The people in the middle have a problem. There are many solutions, but I was hoping Christian members would share their own personal rationalizations.

 

[juvenissun]

The miracle is yet to come. And that miracle would be an explanation for breaking the prohibition against summoning the dead.

I don't think this description fits the case of transfiguration.
It is a demonstration. Jesus do not need anything from those two.

 

[juvenissun]

Here is a Bible quote where Jesus seems to say the opposite. God blesses universally, so we should bless universally. If Exodus was a historical event, then there is a contradiction.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 5:43-45

God exists universally. But God is not known universally to begin with.
God chooses Israelites to make them know Who God is. Then God use Israelites to make the world know Who He is.
God blesses everyone. But one has to recognize Him FIRST. Those who don't will not be punished either, just be left alone. This is extremely Fair. In the case of rain on un-justice land, we do know there are many types of impermeable ground where rain can not permeate through.

It seems that you still stayed in the same trap.

 

[juvenissun]

Almost every religion makes claims about the afterlife, but I suppose you are saying that Christianity is the only religion that makes true claims about the afterlife (because Christianity is the only true religion - right?)

No no. Afterlife is fine. The secret is what would people DO in the final afterlife. No religion tells any details about it except Christianity, which says a lot.

In your example of transfiguration, it suggests that we will sit down with Jesus in the Heaven and discuss things.

 

[Wgw]

Do you see understand the point I am making? Imagine the transfigured Jesus was talking with the Tortoise and the Hare from Aesop's fables ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare ). Some Christians consider the Exodus story to be a fable, but Jesus talked to Moses in the Transfiguration. Atheists dismiss the Transfiguration as a fable, so they have no problem. Biblical literalists think the Exodus was historical, so they have no problem. The people in the middle have a problem. There are many solutions, but I was hoping Christian members would share their own personal rationalizations.

Alas, rationalization is a lousy way to do theology. If one views Exodus allegorical in the manner of the Alexandrian school, this does not preclude regarding Moses as a historical figure; contrariwise, if one adopts a literal Antiochene reading, who are we to question God's divine justice? That Moses is historical, by the way, even if Exodus is not entirely accurate, should be obvious; frankly we have more reason to accept him as a historical figure than, for example, Zoroaster.

 

[cloudyday2]

That Moses is historical, by the way, even if Exodus is not entirely accurate, should be obvious; frankly we have more reason to accept him as a historical figure than, for example, Zoroaster.

Can you explain why you think the historicity of Moses should be obvious? Here is a Wikipedia article on Moses. There is a section on the historicity of Moses that I am skimming.

The overwhelming modern scholarly consensus is, according to William Dever, that Moses is a figure of myth, not of history...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

 

[cloudyday2]

^ Here is the article on Zoroaster. Historians seem to assume that Zoroaster was a real person. I don't know why Zoroaster's historicity is taken for granted, but I haven't read much about it. Maybe there is more evidence. IDK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

 

[danny ski]

I don't think this description fits the case of transfiguration.
It is a demonstration. Jesus do not need anything from those two.

Well, Moses died and then he appeared alive in the story if that's not summoning the dearly departed, I don't know what is.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, Moses died and then he appeared alive in the story if that's not summoning the dearly departed, I don't know what is.

Apparently, there is a tradition in Judaism that Moses did not die - just like Enoch and Elijah. In fact, I was wondering if the Transfiguration may have been implying that Jesus was Enoch (the third person who didn't die). The early Christians were apparently Enochian/Essene Jews, so shouldn't Enoch have been present at the Transfiguration? That is why I wonder if Jesus was meant to be understood as equivalent to Enoch. IDK

Also, another thing to consider is that heaven came down to Jesus. Jesus didn't summon the dead from Sheol. A cloud from heaven appeared around Jesus on the mountain top, and God spoke from the cloud: "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him". It is actually very similar to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

 

[danny ski]

Apparently, there is a tradition in Judaism that Moses did not die - just like Enoch and Elijah. In fact, I was wondering if the Transfiguration may have been implying that Jesus was Enoch (the third person who didn't die). The early Christians were apparently Enochian/Essene Jews, so shouldn't Enoch have been present at the Transfiguration? That is why I wonder if Jesus was meant to be understood as equivalent to Enoch. IDK

Also, another thing to consider is that heaven came down to Jesus. Jesus didn't summon the dead from Sheol. A cloud from heaven appeared around Jesus on the mountain top, and God spoke from the cloud: "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him". It is actually very similar to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Moses is dead. Whoever says otherwise is wrong. And there's no accepted tradition in Judaism that says he did not die.