Historic Premmillennialism and Israel?

[9Rock9]

Where does historic premillennialism stand on Israel?

I consider myself premillennialism but on the fence between dispensationalism and historic premillennialism.

I say I am closer to the latter as I think dispensationalism gets too caught up in details that may or may not be true. I don't have a particular opinion on the timing of the rapture, but I guess I am post-trib. As far as I'm concerned, the rapture will happen when it happens. Could be before tribulation, after it or even in the middle of it. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter to me.

That said, I do thing one thing dispies get right is the attention on Israel and its relevance to biblical prophecy.

I do expect the ethnic nation of Israel to play a big role in the last days and its restoration to be a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Still, I maintain that even ethnic Israelis must repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in order to be saved and become a part of the true spiritual Israel.

While I don't think the modern nation itself means the prophecy has been completely fulfilled, I see it as a stepping stone to that fulfillment and that is still in a state of progress, if that makes sense.

Anyone else like this?

 

[RandyPNW]

Where does historic premillennialism stand on Israel?

I consider myself premillennialism but on the fence between dispensationalism and historic premillennialism.

I say I am closer to the latter as I think dispensationalism gets too caught up in details that may or may not be true. I don't have a particular opinion on the timing of the rapture, but I guess I am post-trib. As far as I'm concerned, the rapture will happen when it happens. Could be before tribulation, after it or even in the middle of it. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter to me.

That said, I do thing one thing dispies get right is the attention on Israel and its relevance to biblical prophecy.

I do expect the ethnic nation of Israel to play a big role in the last days and its restoration to be a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Still, I maintain that even ethnic Israelis must repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in order to be saved and become a part of the true spiritual Israel.

While I don't think the modern nation itself means the prophecy has been completely fulfilled, I see it as a stepping stone to that fulfillment and that is still in a state of progress, if that makes sense.

Anyone else like this?

Very interesting opening post, and I think you're kind of marking out the direction many of us will be going in the near future. I think Dispensationalism had something to say, but has some serious errors, as well. Amillenniaism has ruled for most of Christian history, but again, I think things have been swinging towards Premillennialism, and there is a reason for these developments.

The earliest eschatology of the Church was premillennial, as I understand it. Some ferociously fight against this notion, but there are good scholars who state that this is the evidence. Both Premil and Amil were there early on, however.

The Premil tradition seems to have been strongly embedded in the region in Asia Minor where the Apostle John had been located. So Premil seems to have issued directly out of the followers of John, who wrote about the Millennium.

But even during the early Premil/ or Chiliast period in the Church, Replacement Theology had taken root. It was believed, based on some passages in the Bible, that Israel would eventually repent and return to God, accepting Christ and being restored as a nation.

But as the Jewish hostility continued unabated, Christians got angry with the Jewish People and began to believe they had permanently lost their status with God, Christians in general succeeding them as the "New Israel." I can't go along with "Replacement Theology," since Paul's words in Rom 9-11 are pretty clear that "all Israel will be saved."

This began the long period of Amillennialism up until modern times when Futurism came back in fashion with Catholics Ribera and Lacunza, who tried to dispel the idea that the Pope was the Antichrist. They stated that future prophecy remained when the real Antichrist would arise.

Dispensationalists picked this up, particularly through John Darby, who included in his new Futurism a return to Premillennialism and the belief that Israel would be restored. This was quite prophetic because the very next century would see the beginnings of Zionism and the emergent Israeli State.

So Dispensationalism has been popular in the belief that prophecies, long promised, will literally be fulfilled in the near future, and that Israel as a nation will be saved, both politically and spiritually. But I don't believe repentance in Israel will preceed the restoration of Israel in this way.

Up until the 2nd Coming I believe most Jews will continue in their resistance to Christianity. Only a remnant among them ever become Christians.

But when Christ returns the great judgment that once again assails Israel will bring the country to its knees. And when they recognize that Christianity has been behind all that is happening to them, they will fall down and weep on behalf of their hostility and stubborness. And then the full nation will be restored, politically and spiritually. All enemies will be erased forever. "Never again...."

As for the belief that Christ could come before, during, or after the Tribulation, I don't believe that's true. I believe God already has a date for this, and it won't be willy nilly. The date is set!
And it absolutely cannot be before Antichrist is absolutely destroyed.

That is made clear in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. Antichrist must be revealed, and then destroyed at Christ's Coming. That is as clear as you will ever hear it. Those who don't want to believe what is in plain English make me shake my head.

But there is no hostility from me on this. I used to believe in Pretribulationism too. It sounds nice to say, "God could send Jesus today, or any day He wants to." It sounds nice, but He has already made up His mind and it cannot be true.

 

[lifepsyop]

Dispensationalists picked this up, particularly through John Darby, who included in his new Futurism a return to Premillennialism and the belief that Israel would be restored. This was quite prophetic because the very next century would see the beginnings of Zionism and the emergent Israeli State.

So Dispensationalism has been popular in the belief that prophecies, long promised, will literally be fulfilled in the near future, and that Israel as a nation will be saved, both politically and spiritually. But I don't believe repentance in Israel will preceed the restoration of Israel in this way.

I am a former Premillenialist. I really believed it... and it shaped by whole view of life on earth, that we're just waiting around for rapture.

What really changed my mind was finally simply reading the words of Jesus and the apostles. I had read them hundreds of times, but for the first time I was seeing how plainly they were speaking that these End Times events were going to happen "very soon, shortly, at hand..." within the disciples own generation. It's right there in black and white... (how so many Christians have forced these statements to mean 2,000+ years is pretty incredible)

The book of Revelation is John's version of the Olivet discourse found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke... It's all about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. (It was the most amazing prophetic fulfillment ever and this is why historians are so uncomfortable with early authorship dates of the Gospels)


Later I learned how Premillenialism didn't even become popular until the modern age with John Darby, and then the Scofield Bible at the turn of the 20th century, which turns out to be heavily influenced/financed by prominent Zionists. (like Samuel Untermeyer)


The 20th century was basically a Zionist project, manipulating Christians into believing the modern political state of Israel was part of biblical prophecy, and to support it at all costs....

...and even worse... at the same time the same Christians would largely abandon shepherding their own nations (because they believe the world is just going to get worse and worse until Jesus returns) which is why we see western nations plunging into total degeneracy after WW2 and the creation of modern Israel... it's all connected...

The level of deception is really quite impressive. I'm still processing it all.

 

[RandyPNW]

I am a former Premillenialist. I really believed it... and it shaped by whole view of life on earth, that we're just waiting around for rapture.

My advice is to always be prepared to change your position, if indeed you've promised to follow the Lord. He does allow us to get confused at times, but I'm not going to try to analyze why. It's just the process we must endure, as we humble ourselves before Him.

I've changed my position many times through the years. And yet I'm neither gullible nor indecisive. We just need clear evidence, and our inflences are from the past, the product of people who have hardened themselves in their positions, right or wrong.

It doesn't mean much, but I was raised as an Amillennialist unwittingly--I didn't even know there were other positions. I read the Creeds, and just believed the end would come when it comes. But seeing the news in Israel somehow I believed there was prophetic significance in that.

I ultimately came under the influence of Dispensationalists, and held to the Pretrib Rapture view for awhile until I found Scriptures that rebutted that most clearly. So I became a Postrib Premillennialist at that point, altering my views regularly with each year of study and growth, and coming under the influences of respectable men who made some good points and sometimes made flawed points.

What really changed my mind was finally simply reading the words of Jesus and the apostles. I had read them hundreds of times, but for the first time I was seeing how plainly they were speaking that these End Times events were going to happen "very soon, shortly, at hand..." within the disciples own generation. It's right there in black and white... (how so many Christians have forced these statements to mean 2,000+ years is pretty incredible)

Yes, lots of Dispensationalists accuse me of betraying the conventional Premil position by taking a Preterist-type of position, believing that Jesus was predicting the "soon" destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. This was predicted, I think, in Dan 9.

But I'm not really a Preterist because I don't typically write off all biblical prophecies as fulfilled in the past. I still believe Israel is going to get saved, although many Jews are not in the right position and will be cut off. Presently, there is only a small remnant of Christians among the Jews, and the political salvation of the nation will come only after a major shaking of the country with many being "cut off," as I said.

The book of Revelation is John's version of the Olivet discourse found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke... It's all about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. (It was the most amazing prophetic fulfillment ever and this is why historians are so uncomfortable with early authorship dates of the Gospels)

There is way too much evidence that Revelation is more about the future than the Olivet Discourse, which I think was mostly about Christ's generation. Whereas the O.D. was focused upon Israel in Christ's generation the Revelation is more about the world and the future. It does not surprise me that there are similarities, because it is one God, dealing 1st with Israel and then with the world.

Dan 7 speaks of a future Antichrist who will reign for 3.5 years. The book of Revelation seems to focus on that time as the culmination of history in this age.

Later I learned how Premillenialism didn't even become popular until the modern age with John Darby, and then the Scofield Bible at the turn of the 20th century, which turns out to be heavily influenced/financed by prominent Zionists. (like Samuel Untermeyer)

True. Darby picked up on the resurgence of Futurism under Catholics Ribera and Lacunza. But he added an imminent, any-moment Rapture, which I think is absolutely unbiblical. He was criticized for it in his time, but the whole package of Dispensationalism stuck because I think his message on Futurism had a lot of truth in it.

The 20th century was basically a Zionist project, manipulating Christians into believing the modern political state of Israel was part of biblical prophecy, and to support it at all costs....

That's way to Anti-Semitic for me--I'm not suggesting you're personally Anti-Semitic--just that the position is built, I think, by Jew-haters. You couldn't pay me to think that Jews are so powerful as to control the history of the world. Such conspiracies are made up in the minds of paranoid men because although the Jews are smart and highly influential, they can't come close to controlling the direction of history to lead to a man-centered outcome.

...and even worse... at the same time the same Christians would largely abandon shepherding their own nations (because they believe the world is just going to get worse and worse until Jesus returns) which is why we see western nations plunging into total degeneracy after WW2 and the creation of modern Israel... it's all connected...

Nobody abandons his own nation to follow a utopian dream. The moment it is exposed people come down to earth.

The Zionist, Premillennial dream may seem "utopian," but I believe the flow of history is going that way, with Israel's resurgence and ultimately, Christ returning to teach the nations a lesson. Just like Trump's comeback, the corrupt direction of the world can be stopped, if only for a season in this present age.

The level of deception is really quite impressive. I'm still processing it all.

I'm glad at least you're examining it, and thinking through it. Just remain as open as you can to new information, if possible?

 

[lifepsyop]

My advice is to always be prepared to change your position, if indeed you've promised to follow the Lord. He does allow us to get confused at times, but I'm not going to try to analyze why. It's just the process we must endure, as we humble ourselves before Him.

I've changed my position many times through the years. And yet I'm neither gullible nor indecisive. We just need clear evidence, and our inflences are from the past, the product of people who have hardened themselves in their positions, right or wrong.

It doesn't mean much, but I was raised as an Amillennialist unwittingly--I didn't even know there were other positions. I read the Creeds, and just believed the end would come when it comes. But seeing the news in Israel somehow I believed there was prophetic significance in that.

I ultimately came under the influence of Dispensationalists, and held to the Pretrib Rapture view for awhile until I found Scriptures that rebutted that most clearly. So I became a Postrib Premillennialist at that point, altering my views regularly with each year of study and growth, and coming under the influences of respectable men who made some good points and sometimes made flawed points.

Yes, lots of Dispensationalists accuse me of betraying the conventional Premil position by taking a Preterist-type of position, believing that Jesus was predicting the "soon" destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. This was predicted, I think, in Dan 9.

But I'm not really a Preterist because I don't typically write off all biblical prophecies as fulfilled in the past. I still believe Israel is going to get saved, although many Jews are not in the right position and will be cut off. Presently, there is only a small remnant of Christians among the Jews, and the political salvation of the nation will come only after a major shaking of the country with many being "cut off," as I said.

I came to follow Jesus after going down a lot of conspiracy rabbit holes. Conspiracy culture is generally heavily bent towards Premillenialism, though even believing in PreMill, I was not aware of its wider history with Dispensationalism and Israel. All I really thought was, the world is totally corrupt and hopeless and there's no point in doing anything except waiting for Jesus to return.

There is way too much evidence that Revelation is more about the future than the Olivet Discourse, which I think was mostly about Christ's generation. Whereas the O.D. was focused upon Israel in Christ's generation the Revelation is more about the world and the future. It does not surprise me that there are similarities, because it is one God, dealing 1st with Israel and then with the world.

Dan 7 speaks of a future Antichrist who will reign for 3.5 years. The book of Revelation seems to focus on that time as the culmination of history in this age.

Yea I agree with that. There is clearly some things in Revelation that deal with the time after 70 AD, when people of all tribes and tongues are worshipping the Lord.

I hold some other unconventional views, though I'm not absolutely committed to them. I think what we call the "Dark Ages" was actually the Christian Millenium. Christendom was actually just that, Christendom. This is when the Gospel of Christ went out all over the world. Satan was thrown down and Christianity flourished.

The end of the book of Revelation mentions a "little season" when Satan is temporarily released. I kind of tend to think that aligns with the beginning of Modernity, when men begin to abandon revelation of scripture and instead begin to proclaim their self-enlightenment.

That's way to Anti-Semitic for me--I'm not suggesting you're personally Anti-Semitic--just that the position is built, I think, by Jew-haters. You couldn't pay me to think that Jews are so powerful as to control the history of the world. Such conspiracies are made up in the minds of paranoid men because although the Jews are smart and highly influential, they can't come close to controlling the direction of history to lead to a man-centered outcome.

I don't believe the 20th century was entirely controlled by Zionists or Jews, only that the partnership of Zionists with a world superpower (USA), ended up having massive consequences for the world and our worldview. This is something referred to as the "Postwar Consensus" which began after WW2. There are many aspects to this, but it likely could never have gotten off the runway without a huge swathe of Christians in America coming to believe that protecting 1948 Israel was part of Biblical prophecy.

Nobody abandons his own nation to follow a utopian dream. The moment it is exposed people come down to earth.

One would think so, but I'm not so sure. I think in the last few decades western nations have exhibited some extremely suicidal behavior in the name of being seen as nice good people that don't think or say the bad things.

The Zionist, Premillennial dream may seem "utopian," but I believe the flow of history is going that way, with Israel's resurgence and ultimately, Christ returning to teach the nations a lesson. Just like Trump's comeback, the corrupt direction of the world can be stopped, if only for a season in this present age.

I'm glad at least you're examining it, and thinking through it. Just remain as open as you can to new information, if possible?

I do see the divine hand moving Trump forward. And I do believe we are entering the 'end of an age'. And a new generation of Christians are waking up to the reality that they can champion the Good and Virtue in the world, and are not trapped by the idols of the past century where Christians were commanded by their own pastors to basically stay out of politics and lose at everything and just wait for Jesus. I think that time is over.

 

[RandyPNW]

I came to follow Jesus after going down a lot of conspiracy rabbit holes. Conspiracy culture is generally heavily bent towards Premillenialism, though even believing in PreMill, I was not aware of its wider history with Dispensationalism and Israel. All I really thought was, the world is totally corrupt and hopeless and there's no point in doing anything except waiting for Jesus to return.

Yes, Premill has a negative outlook. It follows the pattern of ancient Israel in their rise and fall. Sin leads inexorably to its multiplicaton and poisoning of entire societies. We're all somewhat weak, and weakness begets even more weakness until judgment must follow.

The same pattern that befell Israel must befall the Church. And that's what we've been seeing with the decline of Western Civilization. European Christianity is at the point of compromise and apostasy. It may be negative, but I'd rather face the truth that put lipstick on a pig.

Yea I agree with that. There is clearly some things in Revelation that deal with the time after 70 AD, when people of all tribes and tongues are worshipping the Lord.

I hold some other unconventional views, though I'm not absolutely committed to them. I think what we call the "Dark Ages" was actually the Christian Millenium. Christendom was actually just that, Christendom. This is when the Gospel of Christ went out all over the world. Satan was thrown down and Christianity flourished.

That is the typical Amillennial position, which has existed for most of Christian history. The Kingdom was thought to have come immediately, even though Jesus said it wouldn't. Jesus did say the Kingdom was "near" but there is some disagrement as to what that meant. Amills think that it meant the Kingdom actually came in a sense, with the Devil being defeated, and Christians entering into a kind of symbolic "Millennium," in which they sit with Christ in heaven and reign with him.

It's just that I'm Premillennial and disagree with this position, while at the same time respecting it. Both positions base themselves on the Bible, and both groups are often good Christians.

The end of the book of Revelation mentions a "little season" when Satan is temporarily released. I kind of tend to think that aligns with the beginning of Modernity, when men begin to abandon revelation of scripture and instead begin to proclaim their self-enlightenment.

Yes, that's the standard Amill position.

I don't believe the 20th century was entirely controlled by Zionists or Jews, only that the partnership of Zionists with a world superpower (USA), ended up having massive consequences for the world and our worldview.

I don't think the Zionist movement had much to do with America's rise as a superpower at all. Sorry that we disagree on this. Making Zionism into a world-wide "conspiracy" goes far beyond what I want to believe. It sounds like "paranoia" to me?

The so-called "Western view" that takes Israel's side is, for me, a good thing. It is protecting democracy consistently, as opposed to making concessions to Islamists and Communists who simply have the edge in numbers over the Jews, and even rival Democrats.

This is something referred to as the "Postwar Consensus" which began after WW2. There are many aspects to this, but it likely could never have gotten off the runway without a huge swathe of Christians in America coming to believe that protecting 1948 Israel was part of Biblical prophecy.

Yes, many evangelicals support Israel because they believe Israel has a biblical right to their land, and also because compassionate people understand what the Holocaust was. If you want to call that a "Postwar Consensus," I'm good with that.

But clearly, that's been changing, and not with a good result. The movement towards Radical Islam and towards Socialism is, in my view, a threat to popular freedoms. It's a clever way to assume control over people by an elite who simply "promises" to keep their freedoms for them, as opposed to letting people simply exercise power for themselves (by electing leaders free of propaganda and military force).

One would think so, but I'm not so sure. I think in the last few decades western nations have exhibited some extremely suicidal behavior in the name of being seen as nice good people that don't think or say the bad things.

I'm not going to defend Western Civilization which I think is gradually going into a freefall. It isn't going to go away, but it's going away from Christianity for sure. Francis Schaeffer rightly said that it would begin with the collapse of Christian norms in our society and end with a completely nonChristian view of morality. And when the society becomes divided and unmanageable, that's when political control steps up. Goodby freedom!

I do see the divine hand moving Trump forward. And I do believe we are entering the 'end of an age'. And a new generation of Christians are waking up to the reality that they can champion the Good and Virtue in the world, and are not trapped by the idols of the past century where Christians were commanded by their own pastors to basically stay out of politics and lose at everything and just wait for Jesus. I think that time is over.

Totally agree. Thank you!

 

[lifepsyop]

That is the typical Amillennial position, which has existed for most of Christian history. The Kingdom was thought to have come immediately, even though Jesus said it wouldn't. Jesus did say the Kingdom was "near" but there is some disagrement as to what that meant. Amills think that it meant the Kingdom actually came in a sense, with the Devil being defeated, and Christians entering into a kind of symbolic "Millennium," in which they sit with Christ in heaven and reign with him.

Yea I guess I meant unconventional for today... at least among Protestants who generally do not like to give any credit to Christian hierarchy of the first millenium and are happy to peddle the "dark ages" myth alongside secular history.

I also wonder if the destruction of the temple was part of Jesus 'coming on the clouds with power', and his beginning to rule the nations with a rod of iron. There are some pretty crazy eyewitness accounts from that event.

I don't think the Zionist movement had much to do with America's rise as a superpower at all. Sorry that we disagree on this. Making Zionism into a world-wide "conspiracy" goes far beyond what I want to believe. It sounds like "paranoia" to me?

Zionist movements (Balfour Declaration) appear to have had a significant hand in luring America out of their isolationism and into WW1. And WW2 results in the Zionist goal of the nation of Israel under USA's blessing. By the end of the 20th century, America is basically viewed as a willing servant of Israel, with a foreign policy dominated by the Israel lobby. I don't think any of this is paranoia, just simple facts. Not even really a "conspiracy" since most of it has been out in the open.

I think even in the language we use you can see the effects of a successful Zionist campaign. As you have mentioned several times "anti-Semitism" is viewed as the highest evil one can be capable of. Even the slightest hint of it puts a person under extreme suspicion.

The so-called "Western view" that takes Israel's side is, for me, a good thing. It is protecting democracy consistently, as opposed to making concessions to Islamists and Communists who simply have the edge in numbers over the Jews, and even rival Democrats.

I think Western powers play a lot of lip service to Democracy but doesn't actually care about it and are quite happy to attack people if they vote the 'wrong' way.

Yes, many evangelicals support Israel because they believe Israel has a biblical right to their land, and also because compassionate people understand what the Holocaust was. If you want to call that a "Postwar Consensus," I'm good with that.

Yes, the Postwar Consensus basically frames everything in the world in terms of Hitler and the Holocaust. Saddam Hussein was Hitler. Bashard Al Assad was Hitler. Putin is Hitler. It's almost as if history began in the 1940's.

But clearly, that's been changing, and not with a good result. The movement towards Radical Islam and towards Socialism is, in my view, a threat to popular freedoms. It's a clever way to assume control over people by an elite who simply "promises" to keep their freedoms for them, as opposed to letting people simply exercise power for themselves (by electing leaders free of propaganda and military force).

I'm not going to defend Western Civilization which I think is gradually going into a freefall. It isn't going to go away, but it's going away from Christianity for sure. Francis Schaeffer rightly said that it would begin with the collapse of Christian norms in our society and end with a completely nonChristian view of morality. And when the society becomes divided and unmanageable, that's when political control steps up. Goodby freedom!

I think much of western Europe is on the brink of collapse because they have largely abandoned Christianity and are being allowed to be completely overrun by foreigners. As wicked as America has been, there still seems to be enough people here who love God, and it seems we are being given mercy with Trump that we certainly do not deserve.

I personally hope that left-wing ideology is permanently crushed and that 'Christian nationalism' continues its ascendancy and that Christian virtue and morality retakes dominance over the political sphere.

 

[RandyPNW]

Yea I guess I meant unconventional for today... at least among Protestants who generally do not like to give any credit to Christian hierarchy of the first millenium and are happy to peddle the "dark ages" myth alongside secular history.

Right, Premill is popular in America today, but it still is not the predominant Christian position. Since Evangelicalism has had its major drivers in the UK and the US, where Dispensationalism rooted itself, it may seem that you hear Premill beliefs wherever you hear English?

But all of the older churches were Amill. So I do understand your perspective. I just don't believe the Millennium happened earlier in Church History. Neither do I go for all of the fervor over the so-called Imminent Rapture and pinning the 666 on everybody and drawing up all kinds of convoluted prophecy maps. But I do believe Revelation is still being fulfilled, and ultimately will be fulfilled in a real Antichrist, followed by the Coming of Christ.

I also wonder if the destruction of the temple was part of Jesus 'coming on the clouds with power', and his beginning to rule the nations with a rod of iron. There are some pretty crazy eyewitness accounts from that event.

That is Preterism, which sometimes believed that Jesus' 2nd Coming was fulfilled in 70 AD. There is after all some indication that Jesus said he was somehow "coming" in that event.

My own belief is not that he had an eschatological 2nd Coming in 70 AD, but that he in a sense "came in judgment." When Jesus spoke in the book of Revelation to the 7 churches he sometimes indicated he was "coming in judgment" upon them within the time of these historical churches.

So the 2nd Coming is not the only "coming" of Christ in a sense. He comes in judgment all through history--every time a major act of judgment takes place in history. That is how the OT Prophets referred to the "Day of the Lord," or the "Day of the Lord's Coming." It was an act of major judgment, or at times an act of major restoration.

However, there is only one *eschatological Coming,* which brings this age to an end, and which destroys the Antichrist. This is when the glorification event takes place, together with the resurrection of the dead saints and the "seizing" of the surviving Church.

Zionist movements (Balfour Declaration) appear to have had a significant hand in luring America out of their isolationism and into WW1.

It's true that during WW1 the British considered what would become of the Ottoman Empire when they defeated it. They obviously questioned what would happen with Palestine, since that was at the time under the Ottoman Empire.

Late in the war the Balfour Declaration took place, indicating that Britain had decided to wrest Palestine from the Ottomans and give it to the Jewish People. That's when the Muslims threw up a fuss because some of them lived there also, and they were Arabic peoples, and not Jewish People. It was an ethnic/religious divide.

I don't think it had much to do with America at all, but I could be wrong. I would have to revisit the history.

And WW2 results in the Zionist goal of the nation of Israel under USA's blessing.

Well, obviously, the US jumped in to try to aid the allies, including Great Britain. Since Britain had originally given Palestine to the Jews, but then capitulated to the Muslims, the US, having one of the largest Jewish populations, determined to accept the UN approval of the partition of Palestine between Jews and Palestinians.

By the end of the 20th century, America is basically viewed as a willing servant of Israel, with a foreign policy dominated by the Israel lobby. I don't think any of this is paranoia, just simple facts. Not even really a "conspiracy" since most of it has been out in the open.

You're assuming that people are being duped when they're not. They just agree with giving the Jews a homeland, as I do. I've read quite a bit on the Middle East conflict, and I with great conviction believe that the Jews should have a safe and peaceful homeland in their traditional land.

There is a ton of territory where Muslims and Arabs can live. There's a large number of Muslim states in the Middle East and thereabouts. Why is there so much fuss over one single Jewish State in that region? I think it's because the Muslims in their ideology want to prove their religion is true by owning it all?

I don't go for the conspiracy theorists who claim that Israel is a fraud and that Jews aren't really Jews. Judaism is a religion, and not many people would accept it if they didn't actually descend from Jews, no matter how mixed they may be.

I think even in the language we use you can see the effects of a successful Zionist campaign. As you have mentioned several times "anti-Semitism" is viewed as the highest evil one can be capable of. Even the slightest hint of it puts a person under extreme suspicion.

Why don't you think that genocide is a great evil? It is trash-talking Jews that led to the Holocaust!

I think Western powers play a lot of lip service to Democracy but doesn't actually care about it and are quite happy to attack people if they vote the 'wrong' way.

I think Western elites caved to Democratic powers because they serve at the pleasure of the people. But once the people can be convinced to give up their control, the elite are only too happy to take their power back.

Yes, the Postwar Consensus basically frames everything in the world in terms of Hitler and the Holocaust. Saddam Hussein was Hitler. Bashard Al Assad was Hitler. Putin is Hitler. It's almost as if history began in the 1940's.

Or worse, people claim the Jews are Hitler. I'm half German--Hitler was bad...very bad.

I think much of western Europe is on the brink of collapse because they have largely abandoned Christianity and are being allowed to be completely overrun by foreigners. As wicked as America has been, there still seems to be enough people here who love God, and it seems we are being given mercy with Trump that we certainly do not deserve.

This I fully agree with. I don't like foreigners coming in unvettetd. They bring with them crime, drugs, immorality, and death. What happened to immigration through the normal processes?

I personally hope that left-wing ideology is permanently crushed and that 'Christian nationalism' continues its ascendancy and that Christian virtue and morality retakes dominance over the political sphere.

Amen.

 

[lifepsyop]

Right, Premill is popular in America today, but it still is not the predominant Christian position. Since Evangelicalism has had its major drivers in the UK and the US, where Dispensationalism rooted itself, it may seem that you hear Premill beliefs wherever you hear English?

I have to study the history more, but it seems like Premill became mainstream after WW2, because it aligned with the dispensational recreation of Israel in 1948. So Christians began to believe they were watching prophecy unfold, and this led directly to the Rapture craze around the 1970's... then the Rapture stuff seemed to fall out of style when the year 2000 hit and nothing happened. It seems like that's when the church just stopped talking about eschatology altogether.

Though I think shades of Premill extend back to WW1 and before, when America began speaking of itself of having a divine mission to spread the "spirit of democracy" around the world... and even before with the founding of America itself as the New World, or a new promised Canaan land across the Atlantic "Jordan"

The 1990's were even referred to as "The End of History"... where American led liberal democracy was supposed to be the final phase of history itself, after the Soviet Union fell.

I think there are all sorts of these memetic millenarian ideas deeply embedded in protestant western culture... attempts to "immanentize the eschaton" as it were...

That is Preterism, which sometimes believed that Jesus' 2nd Coming was fulfilled in 70 AD. There is after all some indication that Jesus said he was somehow "coming" in that event.

My own belief is not that he had an eschatological 2nd Coming in 70 AD, but that he in a sense "came in judgment." When Jesus spoke in the book of Revelation to the 7 churches he sometimes indicated he was "coming in judgment" upon them within the time of these historical churches.

So the 2nd Coming is not the only "coming" of Christ in a sense. He comes in judgment all through history--every time a major act of judgment takes place in history. That is how the OT Prophets referred to the "Day of the Lord," or the "Day of the Lord's Coming." It was an act of major judgment, or at times an act of major restoration.

Yea, I've heard my view described as "Partial Preterism"... I definitely do not think everything has been fulfilled yet, and there is still a new heaven and earth to come.

I think Jesus returning in power in 70 AD was a 'Day of the Lord', and like you said, perhaps that is something that has continued to happen, or maybe happened moreso while the church was asserting its iron rule over the world. Check out the year AD 536. It's amazing how much the cataclysmic events have the feel of Revelation.

I read the typology of the Bible a lot. When Joshua is conquering Canaan, that is perhaps a type of Jesus returning in power in the Day of the Lord beginning in 70 AD. But the kingdom is not yet fully realized until David sits down on his throne. So there is a lot of time that passes between them.

However, there is only one *eschatological Coming,* which brings this age to an end, and which destroys the Antichrist. This is when the glorification event takes place, together with the resurrection of the dead saints and the "seizing" of the surviving Church.

yea I tend to agree with that. There is one ultimate end of the age to come, when this earth fully passes away, and death and pain are no more.

It's true that during WW1 the British considered what would become of the Ottoman Empire when they defeated it. They obviously questioned what would happen with Palestine, since that was at the time under the Ottoman Empire.

Late in the war the Balfour Declaration took place, indicating that Britain had decided to wrest Palestine from the Ottomans and give it to the Jewish People. That's when the Muslims threw up a fuss because some of them lived there also, and they were Arabic peoples, and not Jewish People. It was an ethnic/religious divide.

I don't think it had much to do with America at all, but I could be wrong. I would have to revisit the history.

I think Zionist agendas have been deeply entwined with Protestant reformation generally (because Catholics weren't on the best terms with Jews), then Zionism advanced in pre-20th century Britain, and then post-20th century America.

American elite also had an intimate relationship with the early Soviet Union / Bolvshevik movement.

You're assuming that people are being duped when they're not. They just agree with giving the Jews a homeland, as I do. I've read quite a bit on the Middle East conflict, and I with great conviction believe that the Jews should have a safe and peaceful homeland in their traditional land.

I agree there are a lot of Christians that genuinely want to give Jews a homeland. And I don't have a problem with the Jews having their own homeland. What I think is very misguided is mixing it up with Biblical prophecy and dispensationalism. That is unfortunately where many American Christians are duped.

There is a ton of territory where Muslims and Arabs can live. There's a large number of Muslim states in the Middle East and thereabouts. Why is there so much fuss over one single Jewish State in that region? I think it's because the Muslims in their ideology want to prove their religion is true by owning it all?

I think both sides have very little tolerance for each other and both feel they are entitled to retake each others' territory.

And to be honest, in an ideal world I wouldn't be opposed to a Christian kingdom conquering both Israel and Muslim countries just to establish peace in the region. I really don't want to see either side shooting and bombing each others kids.

I don't go for the conspiracy theorists who claim that Israel is a fraud and that Jews aren't really Jews. Judaism is a religion, and not many people would accept it if they didn't actually descend from Jews, no matter how mixed they may be.

I think they are obviously very distinct from the religion of the Old Testament, and much more in line with the religion of Babylonian Talmud. I think all of their beliefs are false and Christians are wrong to respect their religious beliefs. That said, they are still a people who are deserving of human dignity the way all other people are.

Why don't you think that genocide is a great evil? It is trash-talking Jews that led to the Holocaust!

I think there are many terrible horrible things that happened to many different peoples throughout the 20th century. I don't appreciate all of reality being forever defined around Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that ultimately distorts history and has spread a perverted sense of suicidal guilt around western nations that I have no patience for.

This I fully agree with. I don't like foreigners coming in unvettetd. They bring with them crime, drugs, immorality, and death. What happened to immigration through the normal processes?

I'm in total agreement there. And yes, it's important to note that those foreigners aren't the ones who rewrote the immigration policies and unlocked the gates.

And as I mentioned before, I do think it is a judgment on the west for turning away from God. Their nations have been given over to foreigners.

But it is not too late to turn back to a Christian way of life for them, is it? I don't know.

I have very little respect for "democracy". I'd be fine with a return to an age of Christian monarchs. If anything I think the 20th/21st century have proven that people are not responsible enough to govern themselves. They need hierarchy to preserve virtue.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have to study the history more, but it seems like Premill became mainstream after WW2, because it aligned with the dispensational recreation of Israel in 1948. So Christians began to believe they were watching prophecy unfold, and this led directly to the Rapture craze around the 1970's... then the Rapture stuff seemed to fall out of style when the year 2000 hit and nothing happened. It seems like that's when the church just stopped talking about eschatology altogether.

Though I think shades of Premill extend back to WW1 and before, when America began speaking of itself of having a divine mission to spread the "spirit of democracy" around the world... and even before with the founding of America itself as the New World, or a new promised Canaan land across the Atlantic "Jordan"

The 1990's were even referred to as "The End of History"... where American led liberal democracy was supposed to be the final phase of history itself, after the Soviet Union fell.

I think there are all sorts of these memetic millenarian ideas deeply embedded in protestant western culture... attempts to "immanentize the eschaton" as it were...



Yea, I've heard my view described as "Partial Preterism"... I definitely do not think everything has been fulfilled yet, and there is still a new heaven and earth to come.

I think Jesus returning in power in 70 AD was a 'Day of the Lord', and like you said, perhaps that is something that has continued to happen, or maybe happened moreso while the church was asserting its iron rule over the world. Check out the year AD 536. It's amazing how much the cataclysmic events have the feel of Revelation.

I read the typology of the Bible a lot. When Joshua is conquering Canaan, that is perhaps a type of Jesus returning in power in the Day of the Lord beginning in 70 AD. But the kingdom is not yet fully realized until David sits down on his throne. So there is a lot of time that passes between them.



yea I tend to agree with that. There is one ultimate end of the age to come, when this earth fully passes away, and death and pain are no more.



I think Zionist agendas have been deeply entwined with Protestant reformation generally (because Catholics weren't on the best terms with Jews), then Zionism advanced in pre-20th century Britain, and then post-20th century America.

American elite also had an intimate relationship with the early Soviet Union / Bolvshevik movement.


I agree there are a lot of Christians that genuinely want to give Jews a homeland. And I don't have a problem with the Jews having their own homeland. What I think is very misguided is mixing it up with Biblical prophecy and dispensationalism. That is unfortunately where many American Christians are duped.



I think both sides have very little tolerance for each other and both feel they are entitled to retake each others' territory.

And to be honest, in an ideal world I wouldn't be opposed to a Christian kingdom conquering both Israel and Muslim countries just to establish peace in the region. I really don't want to see either side shooting and bombing each others kids.



I think they are obviously very distinct from the religion of the Old Testament, and much more in line with the religion of Babylonian Talmud. I think all of their beliefs are false and Christians are wrong to respect their religious beliefs. That said, they are still a people who are deserving of human dignity the way all other people are.



I think there are many terrible horrible things that happened to many different peoples throughout the 20th century. I don't appreciate all of reality being forever defined around Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that ultimately distorts history and has spread a perverted sense of suicidal guilt around western nations that I have no patience for.



I'm in total agreement there. And yes, it's important to note that those foreigners aren't the ones who rewrote the immigration policies and unlocked the gates.

And as I mentioned before, I do think it is a judgment on the west for turning away from God. Their nations have been given over to foreigners.

But it is not too late to turn back to a Christian way of life for them, is it? I don't know.

I have very little respect for "democracy". I'd be fine with a return to an age of Christian monarchs. If anything I think the 20th/21st century have proven that people are not responsible enough to govern themselves. They need hierarchy to preserve virtue.

Keep in mind that Historical Premillennialism and Dispensationalism are not the same thing, and depending on which theologian you ask, they can be quite different, in fact.

 

[lifepsyop]

Keep in mind that Historical Premillennialism and Dispensationalism are not the same thing, and depending on which theologian you ask, they can be quite different, in fact.

True. I myself was a Premill without any awareness of Dispensationalism.

As far as I can tell those beliefs became intertwined after WW2 and especially during the Cold War, where a lot of Christians began associating Biblical Armageddon with armies surrounding and attacking the newly restored nation of Israel. Maybe someone else could speak to that in more detail?

This is when you first began hearing the term "Judeo-Christian" a lot, and the idea of America being Israel's protector became popular.

 

[RandyPNW]

I have to study the history more, but it seems like Premill became mainstream after WW2, because it aligned with the dispensational recreation of Israel in 1948. So Christians began to believe they were watching prophecy unfold, and this led directly to the Rapture craze around the 1970's... then the Rapture stuff seemed to fall out of style when the year 2000 hit and nothing happened. It seems like that's when the church just stopped talking about eschatology altogether.

Though I think shades of Premill extend back to WW1 and before, when America began speaking of itself of having a divine mission to spread the "spirit of democracy" around the world... and even before with the founding of America itself as the New World, or a new promised Canaan land across the Atlantic "Jordan"

The 1990's were even referred to as "The End of History"... where American led liberal democracy was supposed to be the final phase of history itself, after the Soviet Union fell.

I think there are all sorts of these memetic millenarian ideas deeply embedded in protestant western culture... attempts to "immanentize the eschaton" as it were...



Yea, I've heard my view described as "Partial Preterism"... I definitely do not think everything has been fulfilled yet, and there is still a new heaven and earth to come.

I think Jesus returning in power in 70 AD was a 'Day of the Lord', and like you said, perhaps that is something that has continued to happen, or maybe happened moreso while the church was asserting its iron rule over the world. Check out the year AD 536. It's amazing how much the cataclysmic events have the feel of Revelation.

I read the typology of the Bible a lot. When Joshua is conquering Canaan, that is perhaps a type of Jesus returning in power in the Day of the Lord beginning in 70 AD. But the kingdom is not yet fully realized until David sits down on his throne. So there is a lot of time that passes between them.



yea I tend to agree with that. There is one ultimate end of the age to come, when this earth fully passes away, and death and pain are no more.



I think Zionist agendas have been deeply entwined with Protestant reformation generally (because Catholics weren't on the best terms with Jews), then Zionism advanced in pre-20th century Britain, and then post-20th century America.

American elite also had an intimate relationship with the early Soviet Union / Bolvshevik movement.


I agree there are a lot of Christians that genuinely want to give Jews a homeland. And I don't have a problem with the Jews having their own homeland. What I think is very misguided is mixing it up with Biblical prophecy and dispensationalism. That is unfortunately where many American Christians are duped.



I think both sides have very little tolerance for each other and both feel they are entitled to retake each others' territory.

And to be honest, in an ideal world I wouldn't be opposed to a Christian kingdom conquering both Israel and Muslim countries just to establish peace in the region. I really don't want to see either side shooting and bombing each others kids.



I think they are obviously very distinct from the religion of the Old Testament, and much more in line with the religion of Babylonian Talmud. I think all of their beliefs are false and Christians are wrong to respect their religious beliefs. That said, they are still a people who are deserving of human dignity the way all other people are.



I think there are many terrible horrible things that happened to many different peoples throughout the 20th century. I don't appreciate all of reality being forever defined around Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that ultimately distorts history and has spread a perverted sense of suicidal guilt around western nations that I have no patience for.



I'm in total agreement there. And yes, it's important to note that those foreigners aren't the ones who rewrote the immigration policies and unlocked the gates.

And as I mentioned before, I do think it is a judgment on the west for turning away from God. Their nations have been given over to foreigners.

But it is not too late to turn back to a Christian way of life for them, is it? I don't know.

I have very little respect for "democracy". I'd be fine with a return to an age of Christian monarchs. If anything I think the 20th/21st century have proven that people are not responsible enough to govern themselves. They need hierarchy to preserve virtue.

I don't agree with all of your positions, but they are certainly thoughtful. I appreciate it! We'll probably be duscussing this more in the future....

 

[EschatologicalHistorian]

My advice is to always be prepared to change your position, if indeed you've promised to follow the Lord. He does allow us to get confused at times, but I'm not going to try to analyze why. It's just the process we must endure, as we humble ourselves before Him.

I've changed my position many times through the years. And yet I'm neither gullible nor indecisive. We just need clear evidence, and our inflences are from the past, the product of people who have hardened themselves in their positions, right or wrong.

It doesn't mean much, but I was raised as an Amillennialist unwittingly--I didn't even know there were other positions. I read the Creeds, and just believed the end would come when it comes. But seeing the news in Israel somehow I believed there was prophetic significance in that.

I ultimately came under the influence of Dispensationalists, and held to the Pretrib Rapture view for awhile until I found Scriptures that rebutted that most clearly. So I became a Postrib Premillennialist at that point, altering my views regularly with each year of study and growth, and coming under the influences of respectable men who made some good points and sometimes made flawed points.

Yes, lots of Dispensationalists accuse me of betraying the conventional Premil position by taking a Preterist-type of position, believing that Jesus was predicting the "soon" destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. This was predicted, I think, in Dan 9.

But I'm not really a Preterist because I don't typically write off all biblical prophecies as fulfilled in the past. I still believe Israel is going to get saved, although many Jews are not in the right position and will be cut off. Presently, there is only a small remnant of Christians among the Jews, and the political salvation of the nation will come only after a major shaking of the country with many being "cut off," as I said.

There is way too much evidence that Revelation is more about the future than the Olivet Discourse, which I think was mostly about Christ's generation. Whereas the O.D. was focused upon Israel in Christ's generation the Revelation is more about the world and the future. It does not surprise me that there are similarities, because it is one God, dealing 1st with Israel and then with the world.

Dan 7 speaks of a future Antichrist who will reign for 3.5 years. The book of Revelation seems to focus on that time as the culmination of history in this age.

True. Darby picked up on the resurgence of Futurism under Catholics Ribera and Lacunza. But he added an imminent, any-moment Rapture, which I think is absolutely unbiblical. He was criticized for it in his time, but the whole package of Dispensationalism stuck because I think his message on Futurism had a lot of truth in it.

That's way to Anti-Semitic for me--I'm not suggesting you're personally Anti-Semitic--just that the position is built, I think, by Jew-haters. You couldn't pay me to think that Jews are so powerful as to control the history of the world. Such conspiracies are made up in the minds of paranoid men because although the Jews are smart and highly influential, they can't come close to controlling the direction of history to lead to a man-centered outcome.

Nobody abandons his own nation to follow a utopian dream. The moment it is exposed people come down to earth.

The Zionist, Premillennial dream may seem "utopian," but I believe the flow of history is going that way, with Israel's resurgence and ultimately, Christ returning to teach the nations a lesson. Just like Trump's comeback, the corrupt direction of the world can be stopped, if only for a season in this present age.

I'm glad at least you're examining it, and thinking through it. Just remain as open as you can to new information, if possible?

Here’s is an English translation of Ribera

Amazon.com

 

[RandyPNW]

Here’s is an English translation of Ribera

Amazon.com

Thank you!