Historic premillennialism

[Iosias]

I suggest everyone reads http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols7-9/chs391.pdf

 

[eph3Nine]

No thanks.

 

[JM]

I suggest everyone reads http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols7-9/chs391.pdf

Don't forget http://www.historicism.com/ or http://www.historicist.com/

 

[eph3Nine]

Why? Is "history" to be what helps me make the right choices as to what is true? HISTORICALLY, there are but a few that really BELIEVE what God has revealed in Scripture. Today, following the crowd seems to be the "in thing".

Its NOT the way God set out in His Word. We are NEVER exhorted to follow the worlds way of thinking...EVER.

 

[TheScottsMen]

I Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

MAB Commentary:
2:13 Receiving the Word. Paul equates his teachings as the Word of God and also as the commandments of God (I Cor. 14:37; I Thes. 4:2). The Thessalonians received Paul's message as one directly from God and embraced it by that conviction; they did not accept it because of respect for Paul, his position, or popular persuasion

- We also should not accept something because it's "historic" as some men seem to bring reverence to it because of it's age.

 

[eph3Nine]

I Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

MAB Commentary:
2:13 Receiving the Word. Paul equates his teachings as the Word of God and also as the commandments of God (I Cor. 14:37; I Thes. 4:2). The Thessalonians received Paul's message as one directly from God and embraced it by that conviction; they did not accept it because of respect for Paul, his position, or popular persuasion

- We also should not accept something because it's "historic" as some men seem to bring reverence to it because of it's age.

Excellent Points, Scottsmen...excellent!

 

[JM]

Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Historism puts forth the idea that many of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation have been fullfilled in history.

 

[WAB]

I Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

MAB Commentary:
2:13 Receiving the Word. Paul equates his teachings as the Word of God and also as the commandments of God (I Cor. 14:37; I Thes. 4:2). The Thessalonians received Paul's message as one directly from God and embraced it by that conviction; they did not accept it because of respect for Paul, his position, or popular persuasion

- We also should not accept something because it's "historic" as some men seem to bring reverence to it because of it's age.

Once again, have to agree!

 

[JM]

What are the roots of futurism & preterism? When I google both I find the history of its expression within the order of the Jesuits, the facts seem true, are they?

Futurism: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) is listed as the first to teach the first few chapters of the Revelations delt with pagan Rome, and the rest is future (3 1/2 literal years) just before the the second coming. Cardinal Robert Bellarmine wrote two works similar in nature in 1581 and 1593. Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801) was also a Jesuit who wrote in 1791 about what is now know as futurism. The work can be found here: http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaAutor.html?Ref=3479&portal=3 Edward Irving (1792-1834) picked up one of the reprints and made a translation of it. The famous Margaret MacDonald 1830 was a member of the Irvinites and had a vision of what latter became the basis for the Rapture. (Personally, from what I know of John N. Darby's life and good Christian living, I accept Darby's history on this matter. He never was a lier and he claimed using a literal reading of the Bible he came to understand the Rapture.) This is what is said to be the foundation of Dispensationalism.

Preterism: Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) was Jesuit as well. He believed that Revelation chpt. 1-11 was the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Chpt. 12 - 19 was the downfall of Pagan Rome, etc.

Did you notice how both the futurist and the preterist views could not acknowledge the rise of antichrist in their time? The futurist tells us the antichrist is coming and the preterist tells us the antichrist has come.

Something to think about.

 

[Iosias]

We also should not accept something because it's "historic" as some men seem to bring reverence to it because of it's age.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

2 Timothy 2:2 "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

- If something is a novelty and has not been taught previously then the above have not been followed.

 

[eph3Nine]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

2 Timothy 2:2 "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

- If something is a novelty and has not been taught previously then the above have not been followed.

You missed the point here. Paul is saying that we are to hold to the traditions we have been taught by HIM...under the MYSTERY PROGRAM now revealed. He is also saying that we are to commit to other faithful men the things we heard from HIM...the MYSTERY truths again.

This isnt referring to Peters message or the words of Christ on earth, but to NEW information given to a NEW apostle for a NEW creation.

 

[Iosias]

You missed the point here. Paul is saying that we are to hold to the traditions we have been taught by HIM.

Indeed he is. What he taught them they must teach and so on yet we do not find what you yourself teach prior to the 1800s? Strange that if Paul taught what you do eh?

 

[eph3Nine]

Indeed he is. What he taught them they must teach and so on yet we do not find what you yourself teach prior to the 1800s? Strange that if Paul taught what you do eh?

If Paul taught it, and its IN YOUR BIBLE, then it matters NOT who believed it or taught it since then. It still REMAINS THE ONLY gospel that saves today. God hasnt changed his mind.

You are of the mistaken idea that just because its not been taught by mainline christianity that its somehow NOT COOL....dont be silly. The MYSTERY IS christianity. ALL else is Judaism.

Take off the blinders...STUDY to show yourself approved unto God. Who cares what church history and modern day "religion" says?

 

[WAB]

Indeed he is. What he taught them they must teach and so on yet we do not find what you yourself teach prior to the 1800s? Strange that if Paul taught what you do eh?

Strange indeed.

 

[eph3Nine]

Were you two there to know what was taught in the 1800's? Can you tell me for a fact, instead of simply saying what you "think", that this indeed is true? I think NOT. Dispensational theology is THERE and the bible is said to be "COMPLETE" with the revelation given to PAUL, not Peter.

There are undoubtedly those who ignored Gods Words then , just as there are NOW. The fact remains. Paul is the apostle to we who are the body of Christ....NOT peter.

What will you do with Paul?

 

[JM]

Were you two there to know what was taught in the 1800's? Can you tell me for a fact, instead of simply saying what you "think", that this indeed is true? I think NOT. Dispensational theology is THERE and the bible is said to be "COMPLETE" with the revelation given to PAUL, not Peter.

There are undoubtedly those who ignored Gods Words then , just as there are NOW. The fact remains. Paul is the apostle to we who are the body of Christ....NOT peter.

What will you do with Paul?

Dispensational theology is just that, a system of theology, it has a historical lineage we can trace. Where you there in the 1800's to know what was being taught? No, but you can sure trace the lineage, and it doesn't run as deep as you'd like.

 

[Iosias]

If Paul taught it, and its IN YOUR BIBLE, then it matters NOT who believed it or taught it since then...Who cares what church history and modern day "religion" says?

Such an attitude I do hold to be daft for you are saying that the truth was taught to Paul and noone since Paul has taught it, oh except when it was 'rediscovered' in the 1800s. I hold to the faith once delivered to the saints which Paul taught Timothy who taught men who taught men and so on. So we have a doctrinal succession from the apostles to today wherein the truth has been preserved.

Were you two there to know what was taught in the 1800's? Can you tell me for a fact, instead of simply saying what you "think", that this indeed is true? I think NOT.

It is logically impossible to prove that something does not exist but what I can say is that until you show me of one person who taught what you teach before the 1800s then what I say cannot be refuted and so is true. So who was taught Mid-Acts dispensationalism after Paul but before Stam etc in the 1800s/1900s?

 

[Iosias]

Dispensational theology is just that, a system of theology, it has a historical lineage we can trace. Where you there in the 1800's to know what was being taught? No, but you can sure trace the lineage, and it doesn't run as deep as you'd like.

A more reasoned view point

 

[eph3Nine]

Such an attitude I do hold to be daft for you are saying that the truth was taught to Paul and noone since Paul has taught it, oh except when it was 'rediscovered' in the 1800s. I hold to the faith once delivered to the saints which Paul taught Timothy who taught men who taught men and so on. So we have a doctrinal succession from the apostles to today wherein the truth has been preserved.



It is logically impossible to prove that something does not exist but what I can say is that until you show me of one person who taught what you teach before the 1800s then what I say cannot be refuted and so is true. So who was taught Mid-Acts dispensationalism after Paul but before Stam etc in the 1800s/1900s?

Give me a break! This logic is so flawed. The GOSPEL is right there in everyones BIBLE....God recorded it so that people such as yourself couldnt make statements such as what you just said, without being laffed outta town!

Pauls revelation is what COMPLETED the word of God. Without it, you have ONLY One program ONLY ONE gospel and its NOT to you! Even if NOT ONE PERSON taught in in the 1800's and I dont believe this to be true at all, its still TRUTH, its included in the scriptures that are called OUR BIBLE, and church history isnt going to keep me from SEEING what God put there for ALL of us to understand.

Good luck when you face the Lord with this argument , by the way. LOL LOL

 

[eph3Nine]

JM said:

Dispensational theology is just that, a system of theology, it has a historical lineage we can trace. Where you there in the 1800's to know what was being taught? No, but you can sure trace the lineage, and it doesn't run as deep as you'd like.

Yes, you can trace it all the way back to the road to Damascus where Paul was saved and made the first in what is known today as the Body of Christ.

You can trace it back to Paul being GIVEN this NEW information, and for part of it being the VERY FORMATION OF THE BODY of Christ, which was NOT even mentioned by Peter or Christ on EARTH.

Right division explains it all quite nicely. This is GODS plan and purpose, as it has been ALL along. Religion and churchianity cannot deal with having to give up their traditions of MEN, that by the way, God WARNS us about, to actually STUDY the Word rightly divided.

God has ALWAYS been a dispensationalist...so I would say, since HE is the One that said He had a SECRET since the world began, the lineage would begin with HIM.