His Will

[visionary]

Was King David wrong to go fight and kill?

 

[daq]

Let's take an honest poll? Who here keeps the Law perfectly?

Under the Law God demands perfect obedience and man is incapable of providing it (especially how Yeshua more clearly defined it)...God cannot tolerate imperfect obedience under the Law...so who then can be saved? How can a man be made right before a Holy God? Have not all sinned? Repentance is essential but it will happen again (somewhere at some time)...but the children of faith believe God and trust God...while you were yet sinners Messiah died for us. Just remember that. Grace without the Law is meaningless presumption, but the Law without grace is condemnation...strive therefore to enter in at the strait gate and trust Him to cover (kapher) the rest under the blood of His Lamb.

An honest poll would not ask a loaded question based solely in ones own paradigm confines designed to bring about a desired answer. Show me where "God demands perfect obedience" and perhaps you might be shown where your understanding of the passage is not the same as mine or some others. You want an honest poll? Ask yourself if you need to add anything to the following statement to be forgiven:

Matthew 6:9-15 KJV
9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

It is as simple as this statement: "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Likewise James calls this the Law of Liberty:

James 1:21-25 KJV
21. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:8-13 KJV
8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

1) Royal Law: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
2) Law of Liberty: "He that shows no mercy shall have judgment without mercy."

It is clear that James here speaks of the Matthew passage which I quoted above where Yeshua clearly states that "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" because mercy triumphs-rejoices over judgment. Therefore judge not lest you be judged and with what judgment you mete out unto others the same shall be meted out unto you. There is therefore absolutely no reason for anyone to even think that he or she needs to "abolish", "render ineffective", "negate", or "nullify" Torah from his heart and mind by "nailing it to the cross of Messiah" because those false assumptions themselves are already nullified by the clear statement from Yeshua and the same teaching reinforced through James and the other writings. We can do all things through Messiah who strengthens us by his Spirit Holy Testimony which he paid for with his own blood at Golgotha. All you need is some patience and faithfulness of the saints willing to sanctify themselves through the washing of the water in the Word.

 

[dfw69]

Was King David wrong to go fight and kill?

No...because he was instructed by a prophet who spoke for hashem to do hashem will ..

But in these last days all men were given the words of hashem through his prophet yahshua.....who clearly warns that man must live at peace each other... to do no harm toward one another...to judge not and condemn not...and forgive sins

By example when men saught to condemn a woman caught in adultery said he that is without sin let him cast the first stone..


That people who hurt one another reap what they sow....those that hear hashem's son will not fall if they keep his words in their hearts

 

[dfw69]

Let's take an honest poll? Who here keeps the Law perfectly?

Under the Law God demands perfect obedience and man is incapable of providing it (especially how Yeshua more clearly defined it)...God cannot tolerate imperfect obedience under the Law...so who then can be saved? How can a man be made right before a Holy God? Have not all sinned? Repentance is essential but it will happen again (somewhere at some time)...but the children of faith believe God and trust God...while you were yet sinners Messiah died for us. Just remember that. Grace without the Law is meaningless presumption, but the Law without grace is condemnation...strive therefore to enter in at the strait gate and trust Him to cover (kapher) the rest under the blood of His Lamb.

Is it unlawfull to believe that yahushuah is our high priest conserning matters of the law?...is it unlawful to believe yahushuah fulfills the works of the law for me?

 

[aniello]

Is it unlawfull to believe that yahushuah our high priest conserning matters of the law?...is it unlawful to believe yahushuah fulfills the works of the law for me?

Don't quite understand first question.

Second question. So, if you steal, fornicate, murder, perjure, covet, blaspheme, dishoner parents, have other gods, have idols, that's ok?

 

[dfw69]

Don't quite understand first question.

Second question. So, if you steal, fornicate, murder, perjure, covet, blaspheme, dishoner parents, have other gods, have idols, that's ok?

I edited

No of course not...

 

[daq]

...is it unlawful to believe yahushuah fulfills the works of the law for me?

Yep.

Jeremiah 31:26-33 KJV
26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me.
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 ~ 19-20 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 5:7-10 KJV
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Perhaps in the aftermath of your own fourth generation you will consider it perfectly, for there are four "generations" to the man, and that generation shall not pass away until all is fulfilled. Therefore take up your own stake, utterly deny yourself, part your own beloved soul asunder, and render the things of Caesar to Caesar, and render the things of your heavenly Father to your heavenly Father.

 

[rick357]

Is it unlawfull to believe that yahushuah is our high priest conserning matters of the law?...is it unlawful to believe yahushuah fulfills the works of the law for me?

A high priest does not does not make people a part of a covenant he does those things to facilitate their covenant.
Messiah keeping law for you implies you are free to do as you please but you are not your own you are bought with a price if the life you now lead is his and he is to will and to do through you I ask you does he break the law. So if you do how is he living through you
This thinking has come from false interpretations of Pauls writings but this one who who counted all things loss in life to gain christ in life did not ever teach a lawless life but rather man was unable in his own power to keep law so God in the flesh toook away that wich held men in bondage and choose to live in men keeping what had witnessed against us through us.
let Paul defend that which the Lord has shown him from galations 5...stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith christ has made you free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage...
Most teach the law is the bondage but Paul never said that he said the law was bondage he said it was good, Holy, and meant to be life to you....the problem was trying to keep the law with flesh of Adams nature was not possible because it was a slave in bondage to sin and the law revealed this death in us. Which brings us to the warning of the next verse..
....if ye be circumsised christ shall profit you nothing for I testify again to every man that is circumcised that he is a debtor to do the whole law...
Most stop here and say see..but consider what has been already said and allow Paul to finish his thought.
Christ is become of no effect unto you whosoever of you are justified by the law ye are fallen from grace..
So now most are sure Paul has discarded the law but the problem for most is a lack of vocabulary..they have lumped as interchangable salvation, grace, mercy, justification, and righteousness but each of these is independant...to be delivered of situation,thought, or action...a gift from love...to pay a debt for another...to be declared innocent of guilt...to do what is right in thought action and motive...so with proper definition we see Paul is saying if you convert to a religious system even one dedicated to Gods law you have nothing but the power of your flesh which can not keep law how do I know they are in flesh the word justified it shows that they were attempting to be declared not guilty by their actions so the gift could not work through them.
This is getting long but countinue to read chapter 5 Paul draws these conclusions there
You are free but do not use this for flesh instead for love...because the LAW IS fulfilled in this love your neighbor as yourself
Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh
If you walk in the Spirit you are not under law
Then he list a list of lawless actions and concludes those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God...because the Spirit does those things that are his nature through us just as the flesh does its nature through us
That leaves us to know if we see ourselves habitually breaking the law we are in the flesh
But if we trust in the gift of God in us to live through us we see ourselves keeping law...remember our definitions and see an order
Yeshua pays the debt we owe(mercy)when we put our trust in that YHWH declares us as innocent(justification) Father and Son come in by Holy Spirit so we trust him to live through us(grace)the Spirit gives us a new heart and mind where our nature is becoming his nature if we throw all we are apon him he both wills and does through us that wich is life perfecting love wich fulfills law(righteousness)and so we are brought from the death of Adams disobediance to law to the life of Yeshuas obediance(salvation)

 

[visionary]

Don't quite understand first question.

Second question. So, if you steal, fornicate, murder, perjure, covet, blaspheme, dishoner parents, have other gods, have idols, that's ok?

I wished you added, keep sunday...

 

[aniello]

I wished you added, keep sunday...

Yeah, I was leaving that void as a sort of bait, being the conniving, devious, old shyster that I have degenerated to be. I think it may be genetic, probably the Sicilian Jewish part of my family, maybe the Lakota part though. So few wagon trains to attack lately. Sigh................ . Want some bead necklaces? Faciamo un afare.(Let's make a deal).

Off to Dr. Back Quack to see about fusing L-Whichever to S-1 I think it is. He needs my fee to make his Mercedes payment. I only thought I could steal more with a briefcase. Capitolizing on misery is a great industry.

chow, ciaou.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Was King David wrong to go fight and kill?

David violated the Torah on many counts.
The prophets who were speaking to him should be held to the light of the Torah, as well.

Is it possible to keep the Torah perfectly? Yes, because there are instructions on how to handle an imperfect situation. If one finds they have violated a command, then follow the command on how to return. The Torah even provides instruction for unknowingly committing sin and how to atone.

Elisheba and Zechariah (Elizabeth and Zacharias) followed the Torah and were blameless.

When we are wrong, what matters is what we do next.

Teshuvah is return, learn, and try not to repeat.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

David violated the Torah on many counts.
The prophets who were speaking to him should be held to the light of the Torah, as well.

Is it possible to keep the Torah perfectly? Yes, because there are instructions on how to handle an imperfect situation. If one finds they have violated a command, then follow the command on how to return. The Torah even provides instruction for unknowingly committing sin and how to atone.

Elisheba and Zechariah (Elizabeth and Zacharias) followed the Torah and were blameless.

When we are wrong, what matters is what we do next.

Teshuvah is return, learn, and try not to repeat.

What has upset and depressed me is somebody telling me that the atonement was for sins committed unintentionally.

That we are not supposed to break the law willingly, and the atonement was just for sins committed unknowingly.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

What has upset and depressed me is somebody telling me that the atonement was for sins committed unintentionally.

That we are not supposed to break the law willingly, and the atonement was just for sins committed unknowingly.

Who said that?
That's not what I said above. (But see posts below.)

Willingly breaking the law is another matter entirely.

Such as David sending a woman's husband to the front lines to dispose of him in order to take the man's wife for himself. There are a host of broken commandments just in that one situation. Thought out, planned, and executed. The Torah has outlined what should have happened next. David's life (his blood) was required of him.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Who said that?
That's not what I said above.

Willingly breaking the law is another matter entirely.

Such as David sending a woman's husband to the front lines to dispose of him in order to take the man's wife for himself. There are a host of broken commandments just in that one situation. Thought out, planned, and executed. The Torah has outlined what should have happened next. David's life (his blood) was required of him.

I didn't mean that you said it, I mean that when I first became a Messianic and started studying the law, I learned that the sacrifice is for sins committed unintentionally, and I was taught this by somebody, and it is always in the back of my head.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I didn't mean that you said it, I mean that when I first became a Messianic and started studying the law, I learned that the sacrifice is for sins committed unintentionally, and I was taught this by somebody, and it is always in the back of my head.

There are consequences outlined for willingly breaking the Law.

This is why it is important to know the Torah and why we (as human beings one to another) should not harshly judge those who may not know. A sin committed in ignorance is like making an uninformed decision.

Of course, knowing the Torah then causes one to be held to a higher standard, because of making informed decisions daily.

It is important to know the laws of the city, state, country, and world in which we reside for the same reasons.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

The following shows the difference between unwittingly and willingly breaking the Torah:

Numbers 15:25 And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire unto the L-RD, and their sin-offering before the L-RD, for their error.

The word "error" is
H7684
שׁגגה
shegâgâh
sheg-aw-gaw'
From H7683; a mistake or inadvertent transgression: - error, ignorance, at unawares, unwittingly.

H7683
שׁגג
shâgag
shaw-gag'
A primitive root; to stray, that is, (figuratively) sin (with more or less apology): - X also for that, deceived, err, go astray, sin ignorantly.

Numbers 15:26 And all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger that sojourns among them; for in respect of all the people it was done in error.
27 And if one person sin through error, then he shall offer a she-goat of the first year for a sin-offering.
28 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that errs, when he sins through error, before the L-RD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven,
29 both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourns among them: you shall have one law for him that does aught in error.
30 But the soul that does aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a stranger, the same blasphemes the L-RD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he has despised the word of the L-RD, and has broken His commandment; that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him.

Verses 30 and 31 is speaking of those who know the word of the L-RD, who break Torah commands on purpose. An atonement sacrifice is not offered in this regard, only to be cut off with their sin upon them (like the goat to Azazel).

 

[rick357]

Who said that?
That's not what I said above. (But see posts below.)

Willingly breaking the law is another matter entirely.

Such as David sending a woman's husband to the front lines to dispose of him in order to take the man's wife for himself. There are a host of broken commandments just in that one situation. Thought out, planned, and executed. The Torah has outlined what should have happened next. David's life (his blood) was required of him.

This is why David cries wash me with hysop pointing to passover and deliverance from slavery to wickedness...and worse David had him killed because trying to cover his sin had not worked

 

[rick357]

The following shows the difference between unwittingly and willingly breaking the Torah:

Numbers 15:25 And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire unto the L-RD, and their sin-offering before the L-RD, for their error.

The word "error" is
H7684
?????
shega?ga?h
sheg-aw-gaw'
From H7683; a mistake or inadvertent transgression: - error, ignorance, at unawares, unwittingly.

H7683
????
sha?gag
shaw-gag'
A primitive root; to stray, that is, (figuratively) sin (with more or less apology): - X also for that, deceived, err, go astray, sin ignorantly.

Numbers 15:26 And all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger that sojourns among them; for in respect of all the people it was done in error.
27 And if one person sin through error, then he shall offer a she-goat of the first year for a sin-offering.
28 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that errs, when he sins through error, before the L-RD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven,
29 both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourns among them: you shall have one law for him that does aught in error.
30 But the soul that does aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a stranger, the same blasphemes the L-RD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he has despised the word of the L-RD, and has broken His commandment; that soul shall utterly be cut off, his iniquity shall be upon him.

Verses 30 and 31 is speaking of those who know the word of the L-RD, who break Torah commands on purpose. An atonement sacrifice is not offered in this regard, only to be cut off with their sin upon them (like the goat to Azazel).

Read 1 samuel chapter 12 in time between Moses and Yeshua men could not keep all of law anymore than today because the weakness of thier flesh was in bondage...to sin with a high hand is to reject law as correct not fail even when you know what is right...what is Samuals responce when the people admitted they had wanted the thing when they knew they should not have it.
Further Yashua has given law full power that even the thought and motive makes one guilty...can you avoid a thought...with what measure you judge..judgement is measured to you