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Hijacking Jesus?

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Balder11

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There have been a number of human beings in the history of the world to have, through meditation, prayer, or other avenues, come to a realization of identity or union with God or the absolute. Only in Christianity has this realization been made out to be the sole possession of a particular human individual. In the following excerpt, Ken Wilber analyzes this development and describes it as a loss for all Christians.

What are your thoughts?

"Every structure of consciousness is suspicious of all higher structures, structures lying within and beyond it, structures that are in fact its own inherent potential, but structures that require a frightening death and rebirth to unfold in each case. And societies, it seems, can be arranged along a continuum of tolerance for those structures that exist higher than the structure of its own principles of social organization and cohesion. The very success, and the constant threats, to the mythic-military Christian empire put tolerance -- never a strong point in mythic structures -- virtually out of the question. Any outspoken person who evidenced a structure of consciousness higher than the mythic-rational was, correctly enough, viewed as a political threat and condemned, in effect, for treason.

The condemnation was often pandemic: the structures of Reason (and science) were condemned because they demanded evidence (reason was therefore allowed only in service of Dogma). The psychic level of nature-nation mysticism was condemned because it brought God "too much into" this world, it "dragged God down" from His celestial throne and the Heavenly City above. Subtle-level mysticism was condemned, or at best barely tolerated, because it brought the soul up too close to God. And the Church became absolutely apoplectic if anybody expressed a causal-level intuition of supreme identity with Godhead -- the Inquisition would burn Giordano Bruno at the stake and condemn the theses of Meister Eckhart on such grounds.
But that was an old story for causal-level Realizers at the hands of mythic believers, starting with Jesus of Nazareth, whose own causal-level realization ("I and the Father are One") would not be treated kindly. "Why do you stone me?" Jesus asks. "Is it for good works?" The pious reply: "No, it is not for good works; it is because you, being a man, make yourself out God." His reply that we are all sons (and daughters) of God was lost on the crowd, and that realization led him, as it would al-Hallaj and Bruno and Origen and a long line of subsequent Realizers, to a grisly death for both political and religious reasons -- it was simultaneously a threat to the state and to the old religion.

Church dogma handled the case of the extraordinary Realizer from Nazareth in a very ingenious way, using all the powers of rationality to prop up the myth. It was true, they granted, that Jesus was one with God (or, as they would later put it, God is one substance with Three Persons -- Tertullian's trinitas -- and the Person of Jesus has two Natures: Divine and Human.) But let the causal-level Ascension stop there. No other person shall be allowed this Realization, even though, as everybody plainly knew at the time, Jesus never made a single remark suggesting that he alone had or could have this Realization, and he explicitly forbade his followers to use the term "Messiah" in reference to him.

But, as many commentators have pointed out, if the Nazarene had in fact realized a Godhead that belongs to all, equally and fully, then there was no way he could be made the sole property of an exclusive mythology. Put bluntly, there was no way to market him. So Jesus was made, not the suffering servant of all humankind, which is all he ever claimed, but the Sole Son of Jehovah, literally. In other words, he was tucked downward and seamlessly into the prevailing mythology, and seen as yet another intervention in history to save a new group of chosen peoples: those who embraced the Church, the one true way and only salvation for all souls (which meant: the only way for imperial-political cohesion of the mythic empire.)

The realization of the Nazarene was thus placed on a pedestal and made an utterly unique property of the Church (and not directly a property of the Soul). It should be remembered that at this stage in development, the moral and political spheres (church and state) had not yet been fully differentiated (which is true for all mythological structures -- the head of state gains legitimacy, we saw, by claiming mythogenic status, by claiming to be specially connected to, descended from, or one with the gods/goddesses: Cleopatra is Isis). As Tillich explains, "This meant that the person who breaks the canonic law of doctrines is not only a heretic, one who disagrees with the fundamental doctrines of the church, but he is also a criminal against the state. Since the heretic undermines not only the church but also the state, he must be not only excommunicated but also delivered into the hands of civil authorities to be punished as a criminal."

The Church would produce many great philosophers (reason), and manygreat psychic and subtle mystics, but no matter how much these realizers tried to downplay the myths, no matter how much they allegorized them or as-iffed them or interpreted them away, there was always the one fundamental dogma that hung like a weight around their attempts to transcend, that crashed down on their shoulders and pinned them to the ground and never budged an inch: the utterly unique and nonreproducible realization of Jesus.

The Ascension itself was immediately mythologized, following the very old mythic motif of the three-day-dead-and-resurrected lunar consort of the Earth goddess (in the pagan rituals, as well as in the Christianized version, one would "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" of the consort, thus to participate in its resurrected powers). Individual Christians who shared the proper mythic belief (or faith) would therefore also be resurrected, after death, on Judgment Day, in another world, where their bodies would be reassembled. ("Um, excuse me, isn't that my fourth metacarpal you've got there?") to sit forever with Jehovah, His Son, and Company. There was no way for individuals to find enlightenment, or ascension in this life, on this earth. Any and all who claimed otherwise were both heretics and criminals.

Again, I have no quarrel with that phase-specific mythic-rational structure and the interpretation that it (necessarily) gave to the Realization of the Adept from Nazareth. It was a crucial component of social integration and cultural meaning at that point in development, and it apparently served its purposes quite well. The problem, rather, was the degree to which and the fury with which this Realization was so thoroughly reduced to mythic levels. Rarely has a causal-level realization been translated so dramatically downward. Rarely has such a powerful realization been allowed to produce so few same-level realizations in its followers.

Not Buddha, not Shankara, not Lao Tzu; not Valentinus, not Numenius, not Apollonius; not Dogen, not Fa-Tsang, not Chih-i; not Garab Dorje, not Tsongkapa, not Padmasambhava -- none would be so thoroughly reduced. It is simply astonishing. Myths would, of course, grow up around all of these realizers, precisely for those who relate to reality in that degree; but their final teaching, causal/nondual, was available to all who embraced the practice, engaged the injunctions, went beyond myth and reason and psychic and subtle, and discovered the Empty Ground in their own case. And to any student who awakened to discover that he or she was actually One with the infinite Ground, in formless identity, the reply came back, in all cases: 'Congratulations! You finally discovered who you are!'

The reply that came back from the Church was: you shall now be toast."

~ Ken Wilber, SES

Best wishes,

Balder
 
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stumpjumper

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I like Ken Wilber and have read his writings before in his magazine WIE?. He gives a one-sided view of the foundations of Christian faith and focuses on only one aspect of the statements of Jesus. Sure, Jesus said we are all sons of God but he also said that "before Abraham was I AM" and "I and the Father are one".

Also, the three day resurection should be contrasted with Jonah and the whale instead of the pagan myths.

I'm actually a little dissapointed in Wilber in his portrayal of Christianity in that article...
 
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elman

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Balder11 said:
There have been a number of human beings in the history of the world to have, through meditation, prayer, or other avenues, come to a realization of identity or union with God or the absolute. Only in Christianity has this realization been made out to be the sole possession of a particular human individual. In the following excerpt, Ken Wilber analyzes this development and describes it as a loss for all Christians.

What are your thoughts?

"Every structure of consciousness is suspicious of all higher structures, structures lying within and beyond it, structures that are in fact its own inherent potential, but structures that require a frightening death and rebirth to unfold in each case. And societies, it seems, can be arranged along a continuum of tolerance for those structures that exist higher than the structure of its own principles of social organization and cohesion. The very success, and the constant threats, to the mythic-military Christian empire put tolerance -- never a strong point in mythic structures -- virtually out of the question. Any outspoken person who evidenced a structure of consciousness higher than the mythic-rational was, correctly enough, viewed as a political threat and condemned, in effect, for treason.

The condemnation was often pandemic: the structures of Reason (and science) were condemned because they demanded evidence (reason was therefore allowed only in service of Dogma). The psychic level of nature-nation mysticism was condemned because it brought God "too much into" this world, it "dragged God down" from His celestial throne and the Heavenly City above. Subtle-level mysticism was condemned, or at best barely tolerated, because it brought the soul up too close to God. And the Church became absolutely apoplectic if anybody expressed a causal-level intuition of supreme identity with Godhead -- the Inquisition would burn Giordano Bruno at the stake and condemn the theses of Meister Eckhart on such grounds.
But that was an old story for causal-level Realizers at the hands of mythic believers, starting with Jesus of Nazareth, whose own causal-level realization ("I and the Father are One") would not be treated kindly. "Why do you stone me?" Jesus asks. "Is it for good works?" The pious reply: "No, it is not for good works; it is because you, being a man, make yourself out God." His reply that we are all sons (and daughters) of God was lost on the crowd, and that realization led him, as it would al-Hallaj and Bruno and Origen and a long line of subsequent Realizers, to a grisly death for both political and religious reasons -- it was simultaneously a threat to the state and to the old religion.

Church dogma handled the case of the extraordinary Realizer from Nazareth in a very ingenious way, using all the powers of rationality to prop up the myth. It was true, they granted, that Jesus was one with God (or, as they would later put it, God is one substance with Three Persons -- Tertullian's trinitas -- and the Person of Jesus has two Natures: Divine and Human.) But let the causal-level Ascension stop there. No other person shall be allowed this Realization, even though, as everybody plainly knew at the time, Jesus never made a single remark suggesting that he alone had or could have this Realization, and he explicitly forbade his followers to use the term "Messiah" in reference to him.

But, as many commentators have pointed out, if the Nazarene had in fact realized a Godhead that belongs to all, equally and fully, then there was no way he could be made the sole property of an exclusive mythology. Put bluntly, there was no way to market him. So Jesus was made, not the suffering servant of all humankind, which is all he ever claimed, but the Sole Son of Jehovah, literally. In other words, he was tucked downward and seamlessly into the prevailing mythology, and seen as yet another intervention in history to save a new group of chosen peoples: those who embraced the Church, the one true way and only salvation for all souls (which meant: the only way for imperial-political cohesion of the mythic empire.)

The realization of the Nazarene was thus placed on a pedestal and made an utterly unique property of the Church (and not directly a property of the Soul). It should be remembered that at this stage in development, the moral and political spheres (church and state) had not yet been fully differentiated (which is true for all mythological structures -- the head of state gains legitimacy, we saw, by claiming mythogenic status, by claiming to be specially connected to, descended from, or one with the gods/goddesses: Cleopatra is Isis). As Tillich explains, "This meant that the person who breaks the canonic law of doctrines is not only a heretic, one who disagrees with the fundamental doctrines of the church, but he is also a criminal against the state. Since the heretic undermines not only the church but also the state, he must be not only excommunicated but also delivered into the hands of civil authorities to be punished as a criminal."

The Church would produce many great philosophers (reason), and manygreat psychic and subtle mystics, but no matter how much these realizers tried to downplay the myths, no matter how much they allegorized them or as-iffed them or interpreted them away, there was always the one fundamental dogma that hung like a weight around their attempts to transcend, that crashed down on their shoulders and pinned them to the ground and never budged an inch: the utterly unique and nonreproducible realization of Jesus.

The Ascension itself was immediately mythologized, following the very old mythic motif of the three-day-dead-and-resurrected lunar consort of the Earth goddess (in the pagan rituals, as well as in the Christianized version, one would "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" of the consort, thus to participate in its resurrected powers). Individual Christians who shared the proper mythic belief (or faith) would therefore also be resurrected, after death, on Judgment Day, in another world, where their bodies would be reassembled. ("Um, excuse me, isn't that my fourth metacarpal you've got there?") to sit forever with Jehovah, His Son, and Company. There was no way for individuals to find enlightenment, or ascension in this life, on this earth. Any and all who claimed otherwise were both heretics and criminals.

Again, I have no quarrel with that phase-specific mythic-rational structure and the interpretation that it (necessarily) gave to the Realization of the Adept from Nazareth. It was a crucial component of social integration and cultural meaning at that point in development, and it apparently served its purposes quite well. The problem, rather, was the degree to which and the fury with which this Realization was so thoroughly reduced to mythic levels. Rarely has a causal-level realization been translated so dramatically downward. Rarely has such a powerful realization been allowed to produce so few same-level realizations in its followers.

Not Buddha, not Shankara, not Lao Tzu; not Valentinus, not Numenius, not Apollonius; not Dogen, not Fa-Tsang, not Chih-i; not Garab Dorje, not Tsongkapa, not Padmasambhava -- none would be so thoroughly reduced. It is simply astonishing. Myths would, of course, grow up around all of these realizers, precisely for those who relate to reality in that degree; but their final teaching, causal/nondual, was available to all who embraced the practice, engaged the injunctions, went beyond myth and reason and psychic and subtle, and discovered the Empty Ground in their own case. And to any student who awakened to discover that he or she was actually One with the infinite Ground, in formless identity, the reply came back, in all cases: 'Congratulations! You finally discovered who you are!'

The reply that came back from the Church was: you shall now be toast."

~ Ken Wilber, SES

Best wishes,

Balder
Not Buddha, not Shankara, not Lao Tzu; not Valentinus, not Numenius, not Apollonius; not Dogen, not Fa-Tsang, not Chih-i; not Garab Dorje, not Tsongkapa, not Padmasambhava -- none would teach God is love and the reason we exist is to love our neighbor. Is this correct?
 
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Balder11

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Stumpjumper,

I agree that Wilber doesn't give a rounded picture of Christianity in that excerpt. I think he could stand to be better informed in this area. I didn't share the excerpt because I agree with it 100%, but because it is provocative and it touches on some issues which I think are important to consider and debate.

Elman,

No, I don't think that is correct. Many "nondual realizers" have described the nature of the absolute in terms of love and compassion, and have stressed the importance of loving all beings.

Best wishes,

Balder
 
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loriersea

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elman said:
Not Buddha, not Shankara, not Lao Tzu; not Valentinus, not Numenius, not Apollonius; not Dogen, not Fa-Tsang, not Chih-i; not Garab Dorje, not Tsongkapa, not Padmasambhava -- none would teach God is love and the reason we exist is to love our neighbor. Is this correct?

I can say that are far as Buddhism, that is NOT correct. While Buddhism does not teach that God is love, it does believe in a kind of universal compassion, which is very similar. And, showing compassion to all living things, sentient and non-sentient, is a huge part of it.

It is not a message that is identical to Jesus' Great Commandment, but it is quite similar. To claim that only Christianity teaches these things is an overstatement.
 
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Wickwoman

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Hi Balder. Good thread.

I think the "rub" is when we as humans realize that we are not special. This is an ego problem. We must all differentiate ourselves from the whole in some way. And often we take others and differentiate them, making them religious icons or gods. In the case of Jesus, I've never quite understood why it is not possible that all should come to realize what Jesus obviously relized in his lifetime. Nor do I understand why it is a threat that all should know God personally and fully. If God is an effective diety, surely if he wants us to know him, he has made provisions that we all can.


More than that, however, I think that categorizing is the "root of all evil" of this sort. Because we must always show the difference between god and man or physical/material and ethereal. I've been reading about Mahamudra and the idea of "one flavor." Often I've used the phrase "it's all good." I think it's saying basically the same thing. We do not need to differentiate between this or that. When we allow it all to be what it is, we will see there is no difference between a "spiritual experience" and a "physical experience." Or between a god and man.
 
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PureX

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Wickwoman said:
We do not need to differentiate between this or that. When we allow it all to be what it is, we will see there is no difference between a "spiritual experience" and a "physical experience." Or between a god and man. [/SIZE]

"God" = the mystery source of all that exists
"God's power/will" = the energy that creates and sustains all that exists
"God's mind/plan (logos)" = the rules that govern the way energy can and can't behave, and therefor shapes the nature of all that exists
"God's love" = the motive behind the divine expression that we call existence.

"Spiritualism" is basically just a process of perceiving physical phenomena through an anthropomorphic and idealized or mystified lens. I think people who have come to recognize their own "divinity" have come to understand that the physical world and our spiritual experience of it are one and the same. We are expressions of the "gods" that we experience.
 
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Wickwoman

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PureX said:
"God" = the mystery source of all that exists
"God's power/will" = the energy that creates and sustains all that exists
"God's mind/plan (logos)" = the rules that govern the way energy can and can't behave, and therefor shapes the nature of all that exists
"God's love" = the motive behind the divine expression that we call existence.

"Spiritualism" is basically just a process of perceiving physical phenomena through an anthropomorphic and idealized or mystified lens. I think people who have come to recognize their own "divinity" have come to understand that the physical world and our spiritual experience of it are one and the same. We are expressions of the "gods" that we experience.

Right! :thumbsup:
 
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DaveMiller

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First of all, happy birthday Wick! Celebrate your unique selfhood
with great joy!!! It is a gift, as are you...

On to the subject of the thread, Balder, as a Christian I celebrate
Jesus Christ's unique relationship with God, through God, and in
God.

In fact, I celebrate the uniqueness of everyone, yourself, myself,
Wick, all that post here, and the list of luminaries Wilbur refers to.

I agree with Wibur that the mythologizing of Jesus the Christ for
political purposes has been far overdone, far moreso than Jesus
Himself would have desired.

However, the flipside of the mythology is authority. Without the
authority which Jesus is given and rightrully claims, the promises
of eternal life, dwelling in close communion with Him, with God,
through Him, in God, would all just be words. Hopeful words, yes,
but not promise, not Covenant, not TRUTH.

I think that Jesus Christ did as much as possible to purvey the
many dimensions from which He spoke, and lived - from
selfless healer through Divine Authority.

Even though the message is mytholigized, i.e. compromised,
politicized, made "unreal" by overzealous human dogmas and
influences, the truth remains for all who choose to look beyond
the dogmas and come to Christ directly, in Scripture, in Spirit.

Dave
 
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Wickwoman said:
Thanks I'm really 40 on Saturday, Dave.:blush: I must confess. I don't know why it's saying I turn 39 this week. But I like it!:clap:
Congratulations on making it to 40, and being relatively sane and healthy. I hope you have 40 more healthy and sane years!
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Balder11 said:
There have been a number of human beings in the history of the world to have, through meditation, prayer, or other avenues, come to a realization of identity or union with God or the absolute. Only in Christianity has this realization been made out to be the sole possession of a particular human individual. In the following excerpt, Ken Wilber analyzes this development and describes it as a loss for all Christians.

What are your thoughts?
Many have gained union with God at some level, only three have always been one God, that Christ was the Word of God from the beginning does not deny the reality of the experiences of the mystics within the Christian community (mystics outside the Christian community are another interesting issue).

The author assumes that Jesus was not Christ, that anything that he does not believe is a myth, assumes, not argues. Can't say as I saw much worthwhile there.
 
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Wickwoman

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Robert the Pilegrim said:
Many have gained union with God at some level, only three have always been one God, that Christ was the Word of God from the beginning does not deny the reality of the experiences of the mystics within the Christian community (mystics outside the Christian community are another interesting issue).

The author assumes that Jesus was not Christ, that anything that he does not believe is a myth, assumes, not argues. Can't say as I saw much worthwhile there.

The one who denies Jesus as the ONLY Christ is not denying his diety. They are denying that he's the only one. It is the one who says Jesus is the ONLY ONE that denies 1. any other culture's claim to the same enlightenment 2. God's desire to express himself/herself in a way that all people and cultures can know and understand.

IF God desires all tto know, he/she would express himself/herself in a way that ALL WOULD know - that includes the whole world, not just one segment. I think the probability that, IF God exists, he/she would find more than one way to reach a vast humanity is high.
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Wickwoman said:
The one who denies Jesus as the ONLY Christ is not denying his diety. They are denying that he's the only one.
What do you think a "Christ" is?

I believe:

Only through the Word of God was all that was created created.

Only Jesus Christ was the incarnate Word of God.

Only Jesus Christ died for our sins.

I also believe that while the above Christian doctrine is true, it is not as exclusive as you (and many Christians) may think

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

If a religion humbly acknowledges the Creator and teaches justice and mercy/kindness, then its founders and keepers have likely understood God's inspiration sent to them and those who recognize the truth in, and try to follow, those teachings are likely to ultimately see salvation.

Peace be with you,
Robert the Pilegrim
 
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Wickwoman

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Robert the Pilegrim said:
What do you think a "Christ" is?

I believe:

Only through the Word of God was all that was created created.

Only Jesus Christ was the incarnate Word of God.

Only Jesus Christ died for our sins.

I also believe that while the above Christian doctrine is true, it is not as exclusive as you (and many Christians) may think

Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man, what is good;And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

If a religion humbly acknowledges the Creator and teaches justice and mercy/kindness, then its founders and keepers have likely understood God's inspiration sent to them and those who recognize the truth in, and try to follow, those teachings are likely to ultimately see salvation.

Peace be with you,
Robert the Pilegrim

RTP, I am not the only one who uses the term "Christ" in this way. It has become a practice of many who believe in "many paths." It has become a word that is used to describe God incarnate as man. And many who follow this "many paths" doctrine believe that Jesus was a Christ, as well as the Buddha and possibly Krishna and others. The idea is that God is not particular about what name you call him. He merely wants acceptance of who he is. And, yes, many religions call him by many names. It is the frailty of human thinking that causes us to take the concept of ONE GOD and make it into many. To look at what seems to be division and fail to see the unity of it all.

I am speaking from a "removed" stance on this subject. Though I used to feel quite certain of the "many paths" idea, I am not committed to even one path, or one God, for that matter. I am an agnostic.
 
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