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Blayz

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"Microevolution will always produce macroevolution given time." That there is the logical fallacy of Appeal to future. You cannot base a theory on facts that don't exist, but that YOU assume will, SOMEDAY.

You avoided the part where speciation has been observed in the lab and in the wild, didn't you. Might I suggest you move your goalposts back to "kinds", most creationists have given up on the speciation thing.

In terms of transitional forms
It's such a red herring, this "transitional form" and "missing link". Everything is a transitional form. Evolution has no goal or endpoint, it is a continuum.

I saw a quote somewhere that said "if a cat gave birth to a canary, creationist would have to embrace evolution, whereas scientists would be required to reject it". The same goes for transitional forms. If we ever reach a point where we know conclusively that we have every transitional form, creationists will have to accept evolution, and scientists will have to reject it. This is because of fundamental misunderstandings by creationists of what evolution is.

they have found forms but the only ones are God only known how many millions of years old. Radio Carbon dating is one of the most inaccurate measures we have today
1) We have humanoid fossils going back 50 000 to a few hundred thousand years. Not every thing is millions of years old

2) C14 dating is not used for anything older than about 50 000 years. It is actually very accurate, and the evidence for this is the fact that we have carbon dated quite literally thousands of things in the past decades, there is even a journal, "radiocarbon" dedicated to field, and amongst all that data creationists can find nothing more than a couple of mammoths, 1 piece of wood and a snail as evidence that it does not work.

If I predicted the lottery correctly 9997 times and incorrectly 3 times, would you suggest my prediction method was poor??

so saying that all the evolution happened "millions of years ago" is chronological snobbery, using something that is outdated to attempt to prove a point.
Actually, to say all the evolution happened millions of years ago would be utterly stupid, and reveal a deeply flawed understanding of evolution. Fortunately, I have never heard anyone say this...well, no scientist, anyway.
 
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avdrummerboy

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"Everything is a transitional form. Evolution has no goal or endpoint, it is a continuum." Tell me then, what are WE evolving into. We are all transitional forms, what are we turning into?

Speciation still produces the same species, a dog breeder pruduces dogs, no new more advanced species have come out of it. It disobeys the law a cause and effect (2nd law of thermodynamics.)

Okay so radio carbon dating is good until about 50000 yrs. old, then they just guestimate, all the better.

"Actually, to say all the evolution happened millions of years ago would be utterly stupid, and reveal a deeply flawed understanding of evolution. Fortunately, I have never heard anyone say this...well, no scientist, anyway." Okay so from what I can see the new thing is to say that everything is a transitional form and is evolving into something but we can't say what, that is an Appeal to future fallacy. Since we haven't "evolved" then no one can prove that everything is a transitional form. I guess I lost track of the time, the old way to look at evolution was to say that all major evolutionary changes happend millions of years ago. All good and fine but since we can't go back in time we can't prove this. (excuse me, I'll try not to use prove; observe.) Also nothing major has happened since.
 
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Blayz

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"Everything is a transitional form. Evolution has no goal or endpoint, it is a continuum." Tell me then, what are WE evolving into. We are all transitional forms, what are we turning into?

I have absolutely no idea. I'll let you know in a few hundred thousand years.

Speciation still produces the same species, a dog breeder pruduces dogs, no new more advanced species have come out of it.
Speciation means evolve into different species. You cannot evolve into different species and still be the same species, it is a direct contradiction in terms. I never cited dogs as my example, I was in fact referring to various species of plants and insects which have evolved in our lifetimes, so to speak.

As for "advanced" once again, I have no idea what that means. More advanced than what? what is a measure of advanced? Is a cat more advanced than a dog?

It disobeys the law a cause and effect (2nd law of thermodynamics.)
You are spiralling into gibberish here. The 2nd law of thermodynamics states roughly that systems tend to entropy. It has nothing whatsoever to do with cause and effect. Pursuant to the former, the 2nd law is quite happy to allow localised areas of increased complexity so long as the overall system becomes more entropic. Since the earth is not a closed system, but has this huge thing next to it called the sun, the huge increase in entropy caused by the sun's nuclear reaction far outweigh the minor decrease caused by life.

Okay so radio carbon dating is good until about 50000 yrs. old, then they just guestimate, all the better.
? There are other methods of dating, many of them radiometric, which do not involve C14. I have to ask, do you really think C14 is all we have in that field? I mean, seriously?


Okay so from what I can see the new thing is to say that everything is a transitional form and is evolving into something

No, once again, your ingrained flawed misunderstanding of evolution is coming to the fore. I repeat, evolution does not have an endpoint or a goal, it is a continuum. we are not evolving into something, we are, simply, evolving.

You keep using the term evolution as though it is a discrete state system with defined check points. That is not what the theory is about.

the old way to look at evolution was to say that all major evolutionary changes happened millions of years ago.
only if you define "old way" as "completely made up by creationists as a weird strawman, and never believed or uttered by any scientist"

All good and fine but since we can't go back in time we can't prove this. (excuse me, I'll try not to use prove; observe.) Also nothing major has happened since.
Indirect observation, inference and induction are perfectly valid means of discovery, no matter what you might think of them personally. And, once again, exactly when is this "since" that marks the boundary of when nothing major has happened.



It looks like it might be time to trot out my usual disclaimer:
I am a scientist, I have spent the last 20+ years working in life science research in academia, government and commercial settings. I have spent much of that time using the predictive power of the Theory of Evolution to make discoveries in various fields, the most recent being HIV therapeutics. To be perfectly honest, whilst I will admit to a sense of shadenfreude watching people with no knowledge of logic nor science try to use the former to disprove the latter, I really could not care less what the tree of life looks like, nor how old the earth is. the ToE works. it is that simple. I have used it every day of my working life, and if it didn't work, I would not have a job....And if you think large pharmaceutical companies are in the business of paying out wads of cash in the name of the great evolutionist conspiracy, you are seriously deluded.


So once again, if you can offer me anything else with better predictive power as an alternative, I will drop evolution with a smile and never look back. One thing, that's all I ask, one simple predictive model borne out of ID or any alternative to evolution which I can actually use in my day to day job

Anything else...you are just blowing hot air.
 
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avdrummerboy

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Okay, well, is the debate over?

Also to you do you see the intelligent design in your line of work?

You can't use logic to disprove science, whats seen is seen. You can ,however, use it to dispute or even rebuke the claims.

http://www.thercg.org/books/effai.html
This is a christian site but the subject might interest you. I am interested to see what you have to say to this book. I am not saying that it is right, I am not saying that anything is right, just curious as to what it says to you?

As I stated before I am open- minded as well as scientific minded about the world around me. In terms of evolution V. creationalism I personally have no side. I believe in God and connot say if he created everything at differing strategic times, of if he just set forth laws and let things go under his watch. Trying to naturalisticly prove the supernatural is still hard to do, thats why I don't do it. :)

I just have a hard time putting my faith into a theory that states that we are all transitional forms that will evolve into something someday, but we don't know what of when. Thats not science, thats speculation, a mere guess as to what will happen in the future. Mabey it is all time based, we just need to give it more time, who knows. We have already given it over 150 years and have not really come to anything conclusive other than if you can leave a lot of offspring then they will magicaly transform into a new species. It seems that species needs to be redifined by the worlds new popular belief. A species is any given creature with any given "mutation" (now synonmyous with trait.) Thus making millions upon millions of species because everything is different.
 
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Blayz

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Also to you do you see the intelligent design in your line of work?

Not quite sure what you are asking, but if you are asking do I see evidence of a Creator, the answer is a resounding NO.


This is a christian site but the subject might interest you. I am interested to see what you have to say to this book. I am not saying that it is right, I am not saying that anything is right, just curious as to what it says to you?
I will have a look, but like I said before, rubbishing evolution is not going to interest me unless you give me something better to work with.

I just have a hard time putting my faith into a theory that states that we are all transitional forms that will evolve into something someday, but we don't know what of when.
I can understand your incredulity even though I do not share it, and as I have stated, it is more than a theory for me, it is a practical money making tool which I used (indirectly) quite recently to purchase a nifty new surround sound system.

Have you ever heard of chaos theory? Does it bother you that we cannot accurately predict weather more than a few days into the future...and even that is wrong as often as it is correct. Is our inability to predict the weather a sign that we can never understand weather that has already happened?

If I tell you I am going to put a lit stick of dynamite in a cake tin in the middle of a football field, would it be reasonable of me to ask you to accurately predict the precise postions of the bits of cake tin after it gets blown up?

Does the fact you cannot accurately predict the preicse positions mean you cannot possibly have even the slightest inkling of what might happen to the cake tin? Does it mean that, after the tin has been blown up, you could not find the pieces and re-create the events during the explosion?

Thats not science, thats speculation, a mere guess as to what will happen in the future.
As I have tired to point out with a couple of analogies, whilst it is speculative it is not a "mere guess". Our inability to model individual compnents precisely does not mean we cannot model the overall system to some degree.

Mabey it is all time based, we just need to give it more time, who knows. We have already given it over 150 years and have not really come to anything conclusive other than if you can leave a lot of offspring then they will magicaly transform into a new species.
You see, you say you are open minded and not in either camp, and then you utter trite nonsense like this. "magically transform" I mean, really.

It seems that species needs to be redifined by the worlds new popular belief. A species is any given creature with any given "mutation" (now synonmyous with trait.) Thus making millions upon millions of species because everything is different.
Well despite your disparaging tone and ridiculous hyperbole you are not far from the truth. Species is indeed a fuzzy term, which works nicely for some things but is utterly useless for others, a more or less arbitrary line in the sand created by people because we need to put things in boxes in order to better understand them.


I can but repeat my earlier comment.

Give me something better that I can actually use.
 
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gluadys

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"Microevolution will always produce macroevolution given time." That there is the logical fallacy of Appeal to future. You cannot base a theory on facts that don't exist, but that YOU assume will, SOMEDAY.

Appeal to future: Stating that while something is not true now, it will eventually be proven to be correct with further study and investigation.http://www.thercg.org/books/effai.html
You would be right if we were only hoping to see macro-evolution in the future. However, you have overlooked the fact that we have directly observed macroevolution (speciation) in the present and have good evidence that it happened in the past. So it is not just an appeal to evidence yet to be discovered. It is based on observed evidence.

We know from observation that macroevolution happens and how it happens. And the way it happens is through continuing microevolution over time. This is fact, not hope for future evidence.

In terms of transitional forms, they have found forms but the only ones are God only known how many millions of years old. Radio Carbon dating is one of the most inaccurate measures we have today, so saying that all the evolution happened "millions of years ago" is chronological snobbery, using something that is outdated to attempt to prove a point.

As blayz noted, carbon dating is not used on any but the most recent fossils (e.g. some ice age mammoths), not only because others are too old, but because fully fossilized remains are mineral, and carbon dating can only be used on organic material.

But there are over 40 other radiometric processes that can be used to reliably date rocks and provide estimates of the dates of fossils.

So you will have to come up with another reason for ignoring transitional forms.

Tell me then, what are WE evolving into. We are all transitional forms, what are we turning into?

Evolution is not a matter of predicting the future. In fact, because there is no set goal that evolution is working toward, we cannot predict the future.

What we can do, in part, is reconstruct the past. Had an intelligent observer been around in the days that Hyracotherium was running around the forests, s/he could not have predicted that its far future descendant would be a horse. But since we have horses and fossil horses and fossil transitional forms, we can reconstruct the history of the evolution of the horse from Hyracotherium.

Similarly, we can reconstruct our evolutionary past, but not foretell our evolutionary future.

I guess I lost track of the time, the old way to look at evolution was to say that all major evolutionary changes happend millions of years ago.

More likely you never correctly understood the theory or the history. In part, it depends on what you think of as "major" evolutionary changes. Evolution is happening all the time, but since speciation (macroevolution) produces new species which are very similar to the ancestral species, creationists tend to dismiss these ("the fruit flies are still fruit flies").

But this is exactly the same level of evolution you would have seen at any point in history. It is only in retrospect that we can pick out major turning points. Had you observed the origin of Hyracotherium you would have seen only a few changes in the tooth structure and said it was only a different "breed" from its close cousin. But today, you can easily see the difference in the descendants (horse and rhinoceros). So don't overlook the small changes we can observe directly. They are the source of the big differences that only become evident over a longer period of time. For all we know, major changes are happening now, but they won't be recognizable for a few hundred thousand years.


http://www.thercg.org/books/effai.html
This is a christian site but the subject might interest you. I am interested to see what you have to say to this book. I am not saying that it is right, I am not saying that anything is right, just curious as to what it says to you?

I'll take a look at it, but I don't expect much except misunderstanding and disinformation. Is there any point made there that you find particularly telling?

As I stated before I am open- minded as well as scientific minded about the world around me.

Well, that's a good place to begin. But if you are scientific-minded, it would be good to check out real science and take what is said on anti-science sites, like the one in your link, with a big grain of salt.

Have you ever checked out this site?

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Give it a whirl, and if you have questions, I'd be happy to try and deal with them.


In terms of evolution V. creationalism I personally have no side. I believe in God and connot say if he created everything at differing strategic times, of if he just set forth laws and let things go under his watch.

I'm a Christian too and have no problems with evolution from a Christian perspective.

Trying to naturalisticly prove the supernatural is still hard to do, thats why I don't do it.

In fact, it is impossible and should not be tried. When it comes to the supernatural we have to rely on faith, not evidence.

I just have a hard time putting my faith into a theory...

Well, don't. When it comes to science we rely on evidence, not faith. You need to do two things: 1) learn what the theory of evolution really says (and does not say), and 2) examine the evidence to see if it really supports the theory.

But don't, absolutely don't, take any scientific theory on faith.


...that states that we are all transitional forms that will evolve into something someday, but we don't know what of when.

As I say, you need to unlearn some things you think you know about the theory of evolution. When you have a better grasp of evolution, a lot of your problems with it will disappear.

We have already given it over 150 years and have not really come to anything conclusive other than if you can leave a lot of offspring then they will magicaly transform into a new species.

Actually, we have come to many conclusions and even direct observation of new species. And there is nothing magical about it. The process is well understood.

I find that creationists typically concentrate on the history (real and imagined, past and projected) of evolution. But the heart of the theory is not about the history of evolution. It is about the process of evolution: how does evolution happen at all. The process of evolution is not often discussed on anti-science sites, and when it is, it is usually discussed very badly. But if you learn the process, then the history is more understandable.

It seems that species needs to be redifined by the worlds new popular belief.

Actually, it was redefined about 200 years ago when Linnaeus created the binomial nomenclature scientists use to name species. Non-scientists tend to equate "species" with common names like "frog", "fly", "rose" etc. So, when they think of evolution they think in terms of a cat becoming a dog.

But to scientists, almost everything with a common name is not one species, but several. In fact, it can be several thousand. There are over 3,000 species of frogs to take one example. In sexually reproducing creatures, what defines a species is whether or not it can and will freely interbreed with others in the population. Often, two closely related species that hardly look any different at all, will not freely interbreed with another. So by scientific standards they are different species.

A species is any given creature with any given "mutation" (now synonmyous with trait.) Thus making millions upon millions of species because everything is different.

Not quite. First "mutation" is not synonymous with "trait". A mutation is a genetic change. A trait is a measurable characteristic of a whole organism. A good number of genetic changes have no effect on the traits of an organism. So you can get differences in DNA without differences in individuals.

Of course, when you do get a change in characteristic traits, that is also due to genetic change. These are the ones that make for evolution. But technically, a mutation is not synonymous to "trait" since you can have one without the other.

Secondly, it takes more than mutations to make a new species. Mutations create variations in a species. They create the differences we see from one individual to another. But, as you know, you can have a lot of variation in a population without the population breaking up into different species.

The key idea that separates one species from another is reproductive isolation. We call it a new species when it no longer reproduces with another population of the same origin, even when given the opportunity to do so.

This still makes for a lot more species than you would guess from common names, but it is not just a matter of mutations or different traits.
 
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gluadys

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Well, I have only read a little way into Evolution, Facts, Fallacies and Implications http://www.thercg.org/books/effai.html and I have already found a good many fallacies in the document.

"The subject of the true origin of life has long been an unnecessarily complicated issue. "

It is a fallacy to confuse evolution with the origin of life. Evolution is about how life changes under different conditions and circumstances. It says nothing about how life originated.

"But how has evolution become so established when it is only a theory?"

It is a fallacy to equivocate the common meaning of "theory" (a guess, an opinion) with the scientfic meaning of "theory".

In science "theory" refers to

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.​

An idea that has been "repeatedly tested" and can be used to "make predictions" is not just a fanciful guess. In science, the term "theory" is given to those ideas for which there is a great deal of supporting evidence and which are considered to be the most reliable explanations of natural phenomena.

"Even a cursory review of this topic shows that it is still hotly contested!"


Not in the scientific community, it is not. Only among non-scientists.

"The results are best summarized by a quote from the late Colin Patterson, ..."


This is what is known as a "mined quote". A single statement is taken out of context to produce the impression that the authority quoted is saying something quite different than he actually did. This particular statement has been misused over and over again by many anti-science authors.

Furthermore, it is very out of date. I think it goes back to 1927. Even if Patterson was correct in saying they knew nothing true about evolution then, the picture has vastly changed since then. You would not find any fossil expert, much less any biologist or geneticist, saying any such thing today.


"The Second Law of Thermodynamics "


He never once mentions that this law, as stated, only applies in a closed system---where no energy can get in or out. He makes the usual confusion between "entropy" and "disorder".

Even his example falls short. After describing how boiling water, taken from the stove, will cool, he says

[the temperature] will move toward colder rather than hotter. ... The energy used to perform any particular task changes from usable to unusable during the process. It will always go from a higher energy level to a lower energy level—where less and less energy is available for use.​

So how does he explain an ice cube taken from the fridge, melting?

In fact, both the boiling water cooling and the ice cube melting illustrate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but you would not know that from his description. Largely because he has not mentioned the earlier part of the process: the heating of the water to boiling point and the freezing of water into an ice cube.

If the 2nd law of thermodynamics forbade evolution, it would also prevent these processes. Evolution does take energy. But so does boiling or freezing water. If energy is available to boil or freeze water, it is also available for evolution.

"The question of evolution, per se, comes in many shapes and definitions. In its most basic form, it is the brainchild of Charles Darwin. In his book, The Origin of Species, Darwin postulated that all living creatures and, by extension, matter itself had come from previous, simpler substances. "


The bolded part is an outright lie. I don't know whether he made it up himself or is speaking from ignorance. But Darwin did not postulate anything at all about the origin of matter, nor did he seriously inquire into the origin of life from simpler substances. In Origin of Species, he speculates that God created several original forms from which all the many species we know today evolved.

"There are six basic areas in which evolution can be defined: Cosmic, chemical, stellar and planetary, organic, macro and micro."

This again is an outright lie---and I assume he copied it from another source since it is widely distributed. The theory of evolution only covers what he calls here "macro" and "micro" evolution.

So evolution is actually a great deal simpler than he makes it out to be, as you can leave out all the first four "basic areas". Especially when you remember that "micro" and "macro" evolution are not really different "basic areas". They are both products of exactly the same causes and processes.

With all these fallacies in just the first small sample of the article, you may understand why I do not think it worth while to read more. However, if he does raise a point that you think needs answering, feel free to ask.
 
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