Hi... I have a question about the Jews...

[DaBronx]

Hey guys,

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

I'm doing a study on world religions and need to know what does your religion feel about the Jews... are they still the chosen people... or do Christians and Christianity replace them?

thanks!!

 

[Anoetos]

We believe that the Church is Israel, not to the exclusion of ethnic Jews but rather to their inclusion, with believing Gentiles, in Christ, the sum of the Law and the Prophets.

The Church has not replaced Israel, Israel is always the Church and the Church is always Israel, but that now, in Christ, the wall between Jew and Gentile has been broken down such that Gentile believers are brought near and included in the saving covenant.

See Paul's letter to the Church at Ephesus, especially chapter 2.

 

[DaBronx]

Thanks Anoetos!!

 

[Anoetos]

You're welcome.

Had you heard from someone that Reformed Christians believe that the Church has replaced Israel?

 

[DaBronx]

You're welcome.

Had you heard from someone that Reformed Christians believe that the Church has replaced Israel?

I had a conversation with a Messianic Jew who told me that there are some Christians who believe that the Jews "had their chance" and that not only are they no longer the "chosen people" but it is pointless to witness to them anymore...
After gasping and being apalled and all of that great judgmental stuff ran through my mind, I remembered that I had once thought the same thing (or maybe I WAS REMINDED ... Gotta love those nudges from The Holy Spirit )

I kept my big mouth shut, mostly from embarrassment, and because this clearly bothered her and decided to post this question to the different denominations... I figured the answers here and my own study of the scriptures would help me understand where this thinking comes from and learn what is the Truth...

Except for one nasty remark from someone in another forum, you guys have all been wonderful!! And, as always, I am getting so much more from this one "little" question...

Blessings,
Lorry

 

[kenrapoza]

Thank you for your question and welcome to our forum!

I think that the description of "those Christians" your friend was mentioning may actually be a misunderstanding. If a Christian were to say some of those things, it would be antithetical to the gospel. Anoetos has already given you a good answer regarding ethnic Jews, allow me to add just a little. Regarding the OT nation of Israel, we believe that the theocracy was a specific part of redemptive-history where God was moving history towards the Messiah and using His people as a light to the surrounding nations in a unique way. We believe that the Mosaic administration is fulfilled in the person and work of Christ.

One thing to make clear: God is not a racist and His bride contains people from every nation, tribe and tongue. They are a great multitude that nobody can number, both Jews and Gentiles. A Jewish person, just like anyone else, must place their faith and trust in Christ for salvation.

BTW...I'm curious why you said our "religion". Just to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding the statement. Is your study for a class or ministry or is it for your own edification?

 

[DaBronx]

I think that the description of "those Christians" your friend was mentioning may actually be a misunderstanding. If a Christian were to say some of those things, it would be antithetical to the gospel. Anoetos has already given you a good answer regarding ethnic Jews, allow me to add just a little. Regarding the OT nation of Israel, we believe that the theocracy was a specific part of redemptive-history where God was moving history towards the Messiah and using His people as a light to the surrounding nations in a unique way. We believe that the Mosaic administration is fulfilled in the person and work of Christ.

Awesome insight... My husband said basically the same thing at breakfast this morning. The Spirit testifies to the Spirit.

 

[kenrapoza]

I'm glad we could be of help. If you have the interest to read a more in-depth study on Israel from a Reformed (Presbyterian) perspective, check out this article from R. Scott Clark on the subject:

Westminster Seminary California clark

 

[DaBronx]

I'm glad we could be of help. If you have the interest to read a more in-depth study on Israel from a Reformed (Presbyterian) perspective, check out this article from R. Scott Clark on the subject:

Westminster Seminary California clark

Thanks for the link... very interesting!

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

Jesus is the fufillment of National Israel and the embodyment of all their promises and Covenantal identity thus by virtue of Union in Christ we are in the True Israel and this is physically manifested in shadow form as the visible Church on earth. The Jewish religion is a Unitarian monothestic religon with whom Christians share an historical link but nothing beyond that. Being a pluralist, I of course believe all people have the legal right (before the state NOT before God) to worship as they please. But I believe the NT clearly teaches that the Jewish worship is to a false God even though they share the same historic categories. The Doctrine of the trinity is clear evidence of that: Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship different deities.
Also, Messianic Judaism is a oxymoron of a religion that embodies that both historic judaism and christianity dislike.

 

[dbcsf]

Hey guys,

Blessings in Christ Jesus!

I'm doing a study on world religions and need to know what does your religion feel about the Jews... are they still the chosen people... or do Christians and Christianity replace them?

thanks!!

I think they are the chosen people of God. Christians aren't replacing them, we are joining them. Wish they could all get to know Jesus.

 

[DaBronx]

Thanks!

From what I understand (since posting my question) is that the Jews were the chosen people to spread the word of God to all nations as the Disciples eventually did (after they finally "got it" after Jesus resurrected Himself and visited them) Not all Jews are saved - only those who believe. Therefore "Chosen people" does not refer to the race or else that would make God a racist... Which CLEARLY He is NOT.

Blessings to all!

 

[dbcsf]

I have heard that point of view also. Many Christians believe exactly that. I actually do not. Like everything else, there is no standard view which all Christians can agree on. Probably makes it hard on your world religion study.

I have heard, for example, that some people believe in "limited predestination". They think that Paul, in Romans, talks about God hardening the hearts of the Jews in order to give more time for the Gentiles to get saved.

Well, that does not seem fair to the Jews. So, the idea is that God predestined the Jews for salvation, and is temporarily holding them back to get in as many of us gentiles saved as He can. Under this system only the Jews are predestined, the rest of us are not.

I don't take that view either. My view is more basic. I think these sorts of questions can be divisive. I say, why start a fight over some theological question which has no application to my life? I don't honestly know who is going to heaven and who is not. Only God knows that, it is God's choice, after all. So, the bible does call the Jews the chosen people of God, and I feel like they are. This way we can all be friends.

Jesus did not die on the cross to teach us theology. He died that we might find salvation, and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I try to avoid holding too tightly to complex theoretical conclusions which have little or no practical value. How is thinking that Jews are saved or not going to affect me? I mean, theology is nice, and can be edifying. But, having a perfect theology is not really the point of being a Christian.

When it comes to salvation, we all have a responsibility to figure out our place in the world, and our relationship to God. If I find a Jewish friend who is questioning his faith, I am happy to share mine with him. But, if my Jewish friend feels like he has all the answers he needs, I don't push my faith on him. It is his choice what he believes, and if he tells me he is finding plenty of fulfillment and salvation in his life, who am I to tell him he is wrong? He knows his own soul better that I do.

I am not an authority on Presbyterian theology, but I a pretty sure the Presbyterian church, at least, holds the view that "God only knows", when it comes to the salvation of the Jews, or anyone else, for that matter. Couldn't tell you about what the other denominations might believe. Sry.

 

[hedrick]

Thanks!

From what I understand (since posting my question) is that the Jews were the chosen people to spread the word of God to all nations as the Disciples eventually did (after they finally "got it" after Jesus resurrected Himself and visited them) Not all Jews are saved - only those who believe. Therefore "Chosen people" does not refer to the race or else that would make God a racist... Which CLEARLY He is NOT.

Blessings to all!

Not race, exactly. I believe the OT concept of "people" is closer to nation than to modern concepts of race. But certainly God did choose Israel for a special mission, as you indicate.

Paul gives us his view in Rom 2:12ff: Jews have no advantage over Gentiles in salvation. But the Law was given to the Jews, and it was an important gift.

As I understand it, it was common for Jews in the 1st Cent as now to believe that righteous Gentiles could be saved.

The more controversial question is whether something similar applies with Christianty. Certainly we are given Christ to spread the news to the world, just as the Jews were intended to be a light. However Christians disagree whether Rom 2:14 can be applied by analogy to non-Christians.

 

[DaBronx]

I agree... Nicely put

 

[DaBronx]

I don't take that view either. My view is more basic. I think these sorts of questions can be divisive. I say, why start a fight over some theological question which has no application to my life? I don't honestly know who is going to heaven and who is not. Only God knows that, it is God's choice, after all. So, the bible does call the Jews the chosen people of God, and I feel like they are. This way we can all be friends.

Jesus did not die on the cross to teach us theology. He died that we might find salvation, and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I try to avoid holding too tightly to complex theoretical conclusions which have little or no practical value. How is thinking that Jews are saved or not going to affect me? I mean, theology is nice, and can be edifying. But, having a perfect theology is not really the point of being a Christian.

When it comes to salvation, we all have a responsibility to figure out our place in the world, and our relationship to God. If I find a Jewish friend who is questioning his faith, I am happy to share mine with him. But, if my Jewish friend feels like he has all the answers he needs, I don't push my faith on him. It is his choice what he believes, and if he tells me he is finding plenty of fulfillment and salvation in his life, who am I to tell him he is wrong? He knows his own soul better that I do.

I am not trying to start an argument, if I came across that way - I apologize - I agree on certain things you said "is this a matter of salvation?" and keeping to the important things in Scripture...

But, I disagree that we should let people who are wrong keep believeing they're wrong because it's up to the individual and only God knows...

I don't feel that enlightening someone to the Truth is us passing judgment, or us standing on a pedestal it is us fullfilling The Great Commission... Don't you think?

 

[dbcsf]

Good point. In my experience I do not find personally, that I have any gift or calling to enlighten people who already feel comfortable in their faith.

For example. My grandfather was a magnificent bowler. I bowled with him when I was a child. After about the 5th time or so, I asked him for some advice. I learned two things that day. The first was, that my grandfather never gave advice unless asked. I also learned a little about bowling.

I asked him why he didn't offer his advice to people. He was a great bowler. He really knew how to bowl. His team had been winning for a decade. He told me that he never offered unless asked. His experiences with offering advice when unasked tended to alienate people. They thought he was telling them he was better than them. Also, they never took his advice.

As people go through life I think we all have a responsibility to search for the truth. Smart people probably ask successful people for advice. I also feel we have a responsibility to share the truth when we think we have found it. But, some people have a closed mindset. I don't mind offering my thoughts, but I am not going to push them. Someday, if the feel like opening up their search, I am happy to share.

Likewise, how can someone approach another person if they have a closed mindset themseles? Is it really fair to tell someone that you are absolutely right and they are definitely wrong? How do you really know? Don't we all put our pants on one leg at a time? Are we not all people? I think if you are going to share the truth with someone, you also have to be open minded yourself. Hey, maybe they found some truth on their journey also. Maybe I should be learning something from them.

Ultimately I feel I am not better than anybody else. All I can really know is what I experience. I cannot know another person's soul, I cannot live their life or taste their experiences. And, I do not feel I can approach someone who has a closed mindset.

So, yes, I do respect the Great Commission. And, I am happy to do my part. But, I think it is non-productive and disrespectful to tell people who are truly not interested about Jesus.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

read The Puritan Hope by Ian Murrey

 

[AndrewZinc]

So, yes, I do respect the Great Commission. And, I am happy to do my part. But, I think it is non-productive and disrespectful to tell people who are truly not interested about Jesus.

I agree that we can't force people to believe in Jesus, Jews or anyone else. But the Great Commission applies to us and we must take a pro-active approach, rather than a hands-off one.

This doesn't necessarily mean challenging someone and declaring that their sincerely held beliefs are wrong (which they are), but taking every opportunity God presents be it in discussion or by the way we live our lives.

Back on topic: one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that there will be a revival amongst the Jews at some point before Jesus comes back. The Jews are God's chosen people which is a great privilege but each of us Gentiles are chosen individually as well and in that respect, as Paul says, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. All of us need to accept Jesus.

I have actually found it easier to discuss my faith with those of other religions than those of (no)minal religion. I think we must be careful not to assume that someone is "truly not interested in Jesus."

 

[Basil the Great]

As I recall, a few of the Early Church Fathers claimed that the Church had replaced Israel.