hi, I have a few questions...

[GREENLIGHT]

No! Absolutely not! Judeo-Christianity is an intelligent faith, not a blind faith. There are always sound theological reasons why things are the way that they are. To discover those reasons you have to study the Scriptures for yourself and allow God to speak to you through those Scriptures.

If you just accept things blindly then you have no way of knowing that what you are accepting blindly is true or not or if you are actually being mislead through false teaching. God expects us to study and learn the truth for ourselves (as far as we are able) and not just blindly try and absolve ourselves of responsibility by leaving it up to others to spoon feed us our theology (Acts.17:11)

Simonline.

"God expects us to study and learn " I like this indeed..


you are right,but why the priests & church dont allow us to ask and learn,


i have many questions about Bible,i believe the bible is not aword of God,it is written by people.

 

[liquorice]

I hope we have answered your questions well enough, and i hope you are seeing things a bit clearer now xxx

 

[GREENLIGHT]

How come, Greenlight? And what exactly do you mean? Surely all Christians believe the Bible in some way at least.



Are you saying that Jesus is a created being? I'm surprised that you have a Catholic icon, if that is the case. Also, to post in this Forum you need to indicate that you accept the teaching of the Nicene Creed, which means that you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was "begotten, not made".

hi,

is the Bible aword of God?
i believe the jesus Created by God......


personaly ,this is my opinion.


can you prove if this bible is aword of God.

I think Jesus is aword of God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Radagast]

I hope we have answered your questions well enough, and i hope you are seeing things a bit clearer now xxx

Me too!

-- Radagast

 

[Ron68]

INCEST :SEXUAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN TWO PERSONS WHO ARE CLOSELY REALTED. (NEW COLLINS DICTIONARY).FOR EXAMPLE BETWEEN FATHER AND DOUGHTER,SON ANDMOTHER,FATHER –IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW,BROTHER AND SISTER ETC.

GENESIS 19;30-37

INCEST IN GODS BOOK BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS DOUGHTERS:
​

Lot and His Daughters​

30Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar. So he and​

his two daughters went to live in the​

mountains. They lived in a cave there. 31One​

day the older daughter said to the younger,​

“Everywhere on the earth, men and women​

marry {and have a family}. But our father is​

old and there are no men around here to give​

us children. 32So let’s get our father drunk​

with wine. Then we can have sexual relations​

with him. That way we can use our father to​

keep our family alive!”​

33That night the two girls went to their​

father and got him drunk with wine. Then the​

older daughter went into her father’s bed and​

had sexual relations with him. Lot {was so​

drunk} that he did not even know when she​

came to bed or when she got up.​

​

34The next day, the older daughter said to​

the younger daughter, “Last night I went to​

bed with my father. Let’s get him drunk with​

wine again tonight. Then you can go into his​

bed and have sex with him. In this way we can​

use our father to have children and our family​

will not come to an end.” 35So that night the​

two girls got their father drunk with wine.​

Then the younger daughter went into his bed​

and had sexual relations with him. Again, Lot​

{was so drunk} that he did not know when she​

came to bed or when she got up.​

​

36Both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant.​

Their father was the father of their babies.​

37The older daughter gave birth to a son. She​

named him Moab.*Moab is the father of all​

the Moabite people living today. 38The​

younger daughter also gave birth to a son. She​

named him Ben-Ammi.*Ben-Ammi is the​

​

INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW
​

​

​

15Judah traveled on that road. He saw her​

but thought that she was a prostitute.*(Her​

face was covered with a veil like a prostitute.)​

16So Judah went to her and said, “Let me have​

sexual relations with you” (Judah did not know​

that she was Tamar, his daughter-in-law.)​

She said, “How much will you give me?”​

​

17Judah answered, “I will send you a young​

goat from my flock.”​

She answered, “I agree to that. But first you​

must give me something to keep until you​

send me the goat.”​

18Judah asked, “What do you want me to​

give you as proof that I will send you the goat?”​

Tamar answered, “Give me your seal and​

its string*that you use on your letters. And​

give me your walking stick.” Judah gave these​

things to her. Then Judah and Tamar had​

sexual relations, and Tamar became pregnant.​

19Tamar went home and took off the veil that​

covered her face. Then she again wore the​

special clothes that showed she was a widow.​

20Later, Judah sent his friend Hirah to Enaim​

to give the prostitute*the goat he promised.​

Also Judah told Hirah to get the special seal​

and the walking stick from her. But Hirah could​

not find her. 21Hirah asked some of the men at​

the town of Enaim, “Where is the prostitute that​

was here by the road?”​

​

The men answered, “There has never been​

a prostitute here.”​

22So Judah’s friend went back to Judah and​

said, “I could not find the woman. The men​

that lived in that place said that there was​

never a prostitute there.”​

23So Judah said, “Let her keep the things. I​

don’t want people to laugh at us. I tried to​

give her the goat, but we could not find her.​

That is enough.”​

Tamar Is Pregnant​

24About three months later, someone told​

Judah, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar sinned​

like a prostitute,*and now she is pregnant.”​

Then Judah said, “Take her out and burn​

her.”​

25The men went to Tamar to kill her. But she​

sent a message to her father-in-law. Tamar said,​

“The man who made me pregnant is the man​

who owns these things. Look at these things.​

Whose are they? Whose special seal and string*​

is this? Whose walking stick is this?”​

​

​

INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER:
​

2 SAMUEL 13:1-22​

​

Amnon And Tamar​

13David had a son named Absalom.​

Absalom’s sister was named Tamar.​

Tamar was very beautiful. Another one of​

David’s sons, Amnon,* 2was in love with​

Tamar. Tamar was a virgin.* Amnon did not​

think he should do anything bad to her. But​

Amnon wanted her very much. Amnon​

thought about her so much that he made​

himself sick.*​

3Amnon had a friend named Jonadab son of​

Shimeah. (Shimeah was David’s brother.)​

Jonadab was a very clever man. 4Jonadab said​

to Amnon, “Every day you look thinner and​

thinner! You are the king’s son! {You have​

plenty to eat, so why are you losing weight?}​

Tell me!”​

Amnon told Jonadab, “I love Tamar. But​

she is the sister of my half-brother Absalom.”​

5Jonadab said to Amnon, “Go to bed. Act​

like you are sick. Then your father will come​

to see you. Tell him, ‘Please let my sister​

Tamar come in and give me food to eat. Let​

her make the food in front of me. Then I will​

see it, and eat it from her hand.’”​

6So Amnon lay down in bed and acted like​

he was sick. King David came in to see​

Amnon. Amnon said to King David, “Please​

let my sister Tamar come in. Let her make​

two cakes for me while I watch. Then I can​

eat from her hands.”​

7David sent messengers to Tamar’s house.​

The messengers told Tamar, “Go to your​

brother Amnon’s house and make some food​

for him.”​

Tamar Makes Food for Amnon​

8So Tamar went to the house of her brother​

Amnon. Amnon was in bed. Tamar took some​

dough, pressed it together with her hands, and​

cooked the cakes. She did this while Amnon​

watched. 9Then Tamar took the cakes out of​

the pan and set them out for Amnon. But​

Amnon refused to eat. Amnon said to his​

servants, “Get out of here. Leave me alone!”​

So all of his servants left the room​

​

​

​

​

Amnon Rapes Tamar​

​

​

10Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the​

food into the bedroom and feed me by hand.”​

So Tamar took the cakes she had made and​

went into her brother’s bedroom. 11She started​

to feed Amnon, but he grabbed her hand. He​

said to her, “Sister, come and sleep with me.”​

12Tamar said to Amnon, “No, brother!​

Don’t force me to do this! Don’t do this​

shameful thing! Terrible things like this​

should never be done in Israel! 13I would​

never get rid of my shame. And people would​

think that you are just a common criminal.​

Please, talk with the king. He will let you​

marry me.”​

14But Amnon refused to listen to Tamar. He​

was stronger than Tamar. He forced her to​

have sexual relations with him. 15Then Amnon​

began to hate Tamar. Amnon hated her much​

more than he had loved her before. Amnon​

said to Tamar, “Get up and get out of here!”​

16Tamar said to Amnon, “No! Don’t send​

me away like this. That would be even worse​

than what you did before!”​

But Amnon refused to listen to Tamar.​

17Amnon called his servant and said, “Get this​

girl out of this room, now! And lock the door​

after her.”​

18So Amnon’s servant led Tamar out of the​

room and locked the door after her.​

Tamar was wearing a long robe with many​

colors.* The king’s virgin daughters wore​

robes like this. 19Tamar tore her robe of many​

colors and put ashes on her head. Then she​

put her hand on her head and began crying.*​

20Then, Tamar’s brother Absalom said to​

her, “Have you been with your brother​

Amnon? Did he hurt you? Now, calm down​

sister. Amnon is your brother, {so we will take​

care of this}. Don’t let it upset you too much.”​

So Tamar did not say anything. She quietly​

went to live at Absalom’s house.*​

21King David heard the news and became​

very angry. 22Absalom began to hate Amnon.​

Absalom did not say one word, good or bad,​

to Amnon. Absalom hated Amnon because​

Amnon had raped his sister Tamar.​

​

​

​

SEX AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS!!!!!!!!
​

2 SAMUEL 16:20-23​

​

Absalom Asks Ahithophel for Advice​

20Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Please tell​

us what we should do.”​

21Ahithophel said to Absalom, “Your​

father left some of his wives here to take​

care of the house. Go and have sexual​

relations with them. Then all the Israelites​

will hear that your father hates you. And all of​

your people will be encouraged to give you​

more support.”​

22Then they put up a tent for Absalom on​

the roof of the house. And Absalom had​

sexual relations with his father’s wives.​

All the Israelites saw it. 23At that time, the advice​

of Ahithophel was very {important} to both​

David and Absalom. It was as {important as}​

God’s word to a man.​

 

[Simonline]

God is not jesus and jesus is not God.God Is somethingelse,he is our creator,and then the other things are his creatures.

Are you saying that Jesus is a created being? I'm surprised that you have a Catholic icon, if that is the case. Also, to post in this Forum you need to indicate that you accept the teaching of the Nicene Creed, which means that you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ was "begotten, not made".

Actually, St. Anselm (and I say this as an orthodox conservative Evangelical Christian of 31 years with no animosity or aggression toward you but only as your friend) it is you who are theologically incorrect and the quote you are challenging is actually spot on theologically (though I doubt that the person who said that has the correct theological understanding (?), probably holding to a Unitarian position which, as such, is heresy...however, I could be wrong (?!)).

It is the Messiah who is both Infinite Divine Creator and finite human creature. Jesus of Nazareth is the name of the finite human creature who, as such, only came into existence at the Incarnation.

However, the second Person of the Trinity (the Eternally begotten Son/Word of God) who, as the Infinite Divine Nature of the Messiah, is the Eternal Creator, and therefore played/plays an integral role in both creating and sustaining the Creation.

You have to simultaneously think of the Messiah as ONE PERSON (because that is what he is) whilst at the same time acknowledging the essential differences between the two natures of the hypostatic union. This is something which many Christians fail to do.

Thus, the Divine Nature (the Eternally begotten Son/Word of God) is not human and the human nature ('Jesus of Nazareth') is not Divine because no single nature can be both Infinite Divine Creator AND finite human creature simultaneously. This is why the Messiah has (must have) two natures so that there is no inherent contradiction in the single Person of the Messiah.

The Divine Nature of the Messiah is eternally begotten, not made. His human nature was created in space and time, just like the rest of us.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

I hope we have answered your questions well enough, and i hope you are seeing things a bit clearer now xxx

And me!

Simonline.

 

[StAnselm]

and I say this as an orthodox conservative Evangelical

I think you're using those words in their loosest sense!

I know of no evidence in the Bible (or the Fathers, for that matter) that restricts the name 'Jesus' to just his human nature.

 

[Simonline]

I think you're using those words in their loosest sense!

No, I'm actually using those words in their tightest and most precise sense.

I know of no evidence in the Bible (or the Fathers, for that matter) that restricts the name 'Jesus' to just his human nature.

Then try Matt.1:21 and Lk.1:31. The name 'Jesus of Nazareth' is the Messiah's human name since his Divine Name is YHWH (Ex.3:14; Jn.8:58).

Whilst the title 'saviour' is ascribed to God entire (Isa.43:10-13) the name 'saviour' (i.e. Yeshua/Joshua/Jesus) is ascribed solely to the Messiah as his human name. This is because there is more to God than simply the Eternally begotten Son/Word of God as the second Person of the Trinity (who, since the Incarnation, is also the Messiah) and more to the Messiah than simply his Infinite Divine Nature.

Simonline.

 

[StAnselm]

This debate is inappropriate in this forum. (Please refer to forum rules.)

Let's continue this discussion in another thread.

 

[Simonline]

This debate is inappropriate in this forum. (Please refer to forum rules.)

Let's continue this discussion in another thread.

I'm afraid that the rules of this forum, though well meaning, are based on the flesh rather than the spirit.

If a new Christian asks a ligitimate ['innocent'] question, the answer to which just happens to be controversial in nature, then the moment two opposing answers are given and any kind of debate or discussion starts, then presumably (according to the rules of this forum) both opposing answers will be deleted (and you can guarantee that the Evil One will seize every opportunity to have the truth corrupted or contested so that people are either confused, deceived or misled)?!

Furthermore, questions are only to be aimed at the forum in general or CF staff members in particular but not specific members who are not on the staff (even if/when those specific members are known to be theologically sound)?!

By what non-arbitrary objective criteria has it been deemed that staff members will always be correct in their answers and that non-staff members will always be incorrect?!

This is classic "we must wrap new Christians in cotton-wool so that they don't come to any harm" mentality and as such is fundamentally flawed.

It is only by being allowed to experience the struggle, the 'cut and thrust' of Christian appologetics that Christians grow strong in both their faith and theology. I agree it is not a pleasant experience for young Christians and is often very confusing but it is only by going through the experience that any Christian will truely grow in their faith. We've all had to do it...including me.

If this is not the case so that Christians might be allowed to work out their own salvation 'with fear and trembling' then all that is effectively happening is that new Christians are being indoctrinated into the 'party line' and shielded from anything that is 'off the beaten track' (even if it is as theologically sound or even more theologically sound than the 'beaten track' itself)?!

Ideally, a new or young Christian should be 'accompanied' by a mature Christian disciple or 'spiritual mentor' (just as children are sheilded by their parents or older siblings until they have mastered basic survival skills) but they should not be altogether cocooned from the controversy [warfare] of the real spiritual world (Eph.6:12; 2Cor.10:3-5).

Simonline.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mod Hat
​

This particular forum does not allow debating. Any further debating will lead to the appropriate warnings and/or banning. ​

 

[Simonline]

Mod Hat




​

This particular forum does not allow debating. Any further debating will lead to the appropriate warnings and/or banning. ​

With respect, I am not the one who is debating. I am simply trying to teach the truth according to the Christian Faith and Scriptures rather than popular Evangelicalism (there being a big difference between the two). It is St. Anselm who has taken issue with what I have said...perhaps you would rather I just ignore him (and anyone else who takes issue with anything that I have said)?

As a moderator (and therefore a member of staff) would you care to respond to any of the points I have raised in my last post?

Simonline.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

As a moderator (and therefore a member of staff) would you care to respond to any of the points I have raised in my last post?
Simonline.

Mod Hat​

No...because this is not a debate forum.​

 

[SparkyMel]

OK, i think i'll just bypass the debate and hope it goes away
About the praying to angels thing... I thought people prayed to angels and saints because they were created beings, and so they are more like us, so they can have a more personal relationship with humans (then again, i suppose it depends on how we see out relationship with God; whether he is in the world, or outside of it) They can then pass on the prayers to God because they are with him, and they have a link with him. They are a link between humans and the heavens.
Also, surely if you're just praying to the angels, and not worshipping them, then it's more like a request, not idolatry...?
I'm confused now... and opinions will probably be subjective... is there anything in the Bible about it?

 

[Tenorvoice]

OK, i think i'll just bypass the debate and hope it goes away
About the praying to angels thing... I thought people prayed to angels and saints because they were created beings, and so they are more like us, so they can have a more personal relationship with humans (then again, i suppose it depends on how we see out relationship with God; whether he is in the world, or outside of it) They can then pass on the prayers to God because they are with him, and they have a link with him. They are a link between humans and the heavens.
Also, surely if you're just praying to the angels, and not worshipping them, then it's more like a request, not idolatry...?
I'm confused now... and opinions will probably be subjective... is there anything in the Bible about it?

Yes there is an exapmle in the Scriptures. Read the Lords Prayer. When He teaches His disciples to pray how does He teach them to pray to?? "...Our FATHER who art in Heaven....." (emphasis mine).

There is a reason that Jesus chose these words. It is because our Father is the ONLY one that we are to pray to. We have Jesus as our intersesor (sp), we do not need to pray to angles/saints/Mary, or anyone else for that matter.
RO 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; RO 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

HEB 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

1JN 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1JN 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

hope this helps.

 

[Simonline]

OK, i think i'll just bypass the debate and hope it goes away
About the praying to angels thing... I thought people prayed to angels and saints because they were created beings, and so they are more like us, so they can have a more personal relationship with humans (then again, i suppose it depends on how we see out relationship with God; whether he is in the world, or outside of it) They can then pass on the prayers to God because they are with him, and they have a link with him. They are a link between humans and the heavens.
Also, surely if you're just praying to the angels, and not worshipping them, then it's more like a request, not idolatry...?
I'm confused now... and opinions will probably be subjective... is there anything in the Bible about it?

There sure is. The very reason why God prohibits all contact with the spirit realm (apart from having direct contact with Him alone) is because one third of the created angelic beings have rebelled against God and are therefore out to both deceive and destroy all of God's Creation, especially humans who are made in the image of God.

If you want to experience the utter stupidity of such a practise then go waltz blindfolded on a minefield?!

The Scriptures are unequivocal on this point, that there is only one mediator between God and Man, the [human] Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth (1Tim.2:5) who, as a priest after the order of Melchizedek (an everlasting priest), is the only priest acknowledged and recognized as a mediator by God (Num.16).

Needless to say, there are absolutely no mediators between Man and the Messiah since there does not need to be any mediators between the Messiah and the Human race because the Messiah is a part of that same Human race.

There is now nothing to stop you approaching God directly providing you do it by God's grace whilst trusting in the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah as the propitiation (the thing that removes your sin from God's sight) for your sins? No other mediator is necessary (and certainly not a sinful one).

Christians should never allow themselves to be used as makeshift mediators between God and other people. Christians should always be willing to pray with others whilst always refusing to pray for others, since such practises serve only to remove the person (people) further and further away from God by interjecting unnecessary 'mediators' between them and God. The role of a Christian, as a member of the 'royal priesthood' (1Pet.2:9), is to bring people ever closer to God and NEVER to come (as an unauthorized 'mediator') between them and God (1Tim.2:5).

Simonline.

 

[SparkyMel]

Cool... I'll remember that.